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UK Politics Hamsterwheel Mk III

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UK Politics Hamsterwheel Mk III

Old 13th Dec 2019, 09:23
  #61 (permalink)  
 
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​​​​​​​So then how do you equate Labour ( 2nd ref) 33%, Lib Dem, ( Remain)12% Green (Remain) 3% SNP (Remain) 4% Sinn Fein, SDLP, Alliance (Remain) 1% with being a mandate for Brexit? Quite simply FPTP gifted the un split Leave vote to the Tories.
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Old 13th Dec 2019, 09:30
  #62 (permalink)  
 
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Bit early in the day for we coffin-dodging wrinklies but, so far, nothing particularly surprising - the lunatics have taken over the asylum, as expected! Thank you PN for that well-reasoned response, on my behalf.
This result is welcome for one major value - the Tories will no longer be able to blame everybody (or anybody) else for their guaranteed foul-ups. Rethinking that, it will now be the EU who will be blamed for preventing them achieving Chauvinist Heaven.
I have previously mentioned my irritation with the constant over-use of the term Democracy and its derivatives. The viperous, Thatcher-loving, Mr Moore who out-did himself on the Beeb's Today programme liberally(oh, the irony!) sprinkled his diatribe with it. As usual, no attempt to define the term nor any such query from Robinson. It's rather too early for such exercises, but, just for fun in these sad days, let's examine how our 'Democracy' works in translating the voter's wishes into political power.
The number of votes requred to elect a person in each Party is (from yesterday's results) as follows :-
Conservatives - 38,300; Labour - 50,700; Scot Nats - 25,882 and Liberal - 334,122 ... No, the comma hasn't been displaced! As for the Greens, they must be resilient beyond belief!
I appreciate that numbers are, for a lot of our contributors, something to be ignored unless they can be manipulated to advantage but even those innumerates might feel that the above figures are a little less than 'Democratic' ... oh, maybe not!
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Old 13th Dec 2019, 09:37
  #63 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by andrewn View Post
Where to start with this one KnC?? I feel for you and the obvious disappointment that comes with the annihilation of JC and everything he stands for (or wasnt quite sure where he stood on).

But to paint BoJo and the Conservative party as a far right wing Junta is just madness. What he was for the majority, was the least worst option on the day. And it really doesnt merit the hyperbole of your post above. It's very clear lots of disaffected Labour voters "lent" him their vote so If he doesnt deliver, in the way people like, then he'll be out on his ear next time round. Simples really.
Thank you, but I really don't need any faux condescending sympathy. There was no hyperbole in my post.

However, as the word junta has clearly affected the semantics, allow me to amend this to...... dictatorship.

The problem with the underlined, is that he, and his Gov't,won't deliver. Labour made a catastrophic error by trying to match, and then outstrip, the Tory largesse promised to the electorate. In five years, Boris, and his policies, can, and will do a lot of damage to many peoples lives because as I say, it's only a matter of time before the "excuses" begin, inevitably supported by his "I got Brexit ( and the UK electorate ) well and truly done ".....and that's going to wear very thin, very quickly once we've left.

He's as about as far removed from a "one nation Conservative " as a black mamba is from being a slow worm and likewise those whom he will chose to surround himself with are unlikely to offer dissenting voices.
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Old 13th Dec 2019, 09:44
  #64 (permalink)  
 
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Looking at the way the votes split, it seems clear that the primary cause for all the changes, in every area, was a very dramatic swing away from Labour. No other party changed its level of support by anywhere near the level that Labour lost support. The figures are stark, and show that, despite the rhetoric to the contrary, neither the Conservative and Unionist Party, not the SNP, had large increases in their position vs the last election, their position now is a consequence of hundreds of thousands of Labour voters leaving the fold.

This little graphic (from the BBC) illustrates that the largest gain was made by the Liberal Democrats, not that it did them any good in reality:



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Old 13th Dec 2019, 09:49
  #65 (permalink)  
 
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Yes, I think the Lib Dems problem was starting from such a low base at the last election and the unpopular revoke policy.
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Old 13th Dec 2019, 09:53
  #66 (permalink)  
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One thing that fascinates me about UK politics is the tension that exists between (a) voting for a PM and (b) voting for a party and its policies. (There should be option (c) voting for your local MP, but I don't see much of that going on.) Option (b) should take precedence, and in this election I think it did, barely. Boris doesn't appear to be all that popular or trusted as a person, but it wasn't all about him, which works in his favour.

In contrast, Labour was all about Corbyn, since there wasn't much else interesting when it came to Labour policies. They rolled out some "time machine" ideas for the election, but they didn't grab much attention, it seems to me. Even The Guardian didn't spend much time on Labour policies, preferring instead to attack Boris, cry "Wolf" about the NHS, and bombard readers with the picture of a kid lying on a hospital floor. So (in my opinion) it was Corbyn's election to lose, which he did.
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Old 13th Dec 2019, 09:55
  #67 (permalink)  
 
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So after all those years of preaching socialism, cosying up to terrorists, supporting the unions and protesting about any and all Tory policies. The final end result of Corbyns career in politics is?

The biggest Tory majority since Thatcher.

Thank you Jeremey, on behalf of every Tory voter, we really couldn't have done it without you.
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Old 13th Dec 2019, 10:09
  #68 (permalink)  
 
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In five years, Boris, and his policies, can, and will do a lot of damage to many peoples lives because as I say,
Ah, knc knows that he won't deliver, it's always doom and gloom with the losers, always will be, but especially for the lefties.
I hope that he is now under the benign Conservative control in his constituency
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Old 13th Dec 2019, 10:37
  #69 (permalink)  
 
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VP, that chart doesn't accurately represent the result for the SNP. As they were only standing in 59 seats their gain is far greater in percentage terms
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Old 13th Dec 2019, 10:53
  #70 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by denachtenmai View Post
Ah, knc knows that he won't deliver, it's always doom and gloom with the losers, always will be, but especially for the lefties.
I hope that he is now under the benign Conservative control in his constituency
The future foretold, and the principal character......I don't suppose you will ever admit as and when the policies affect you.

https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...emitism-brexit

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Old 13th Dec 2019, 11:04
  #71 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by longer ron View Post
Andrew - please remember that not everybody up here wants 'Indy dependence' - prior to this GE the SNP were in decline because their record in government up here is absolutely appalling.
Yep - I realise that, I know a fair few Scots both through work and friends and I dont know ANY of them that think Indy is even a remotely good idea! But, on the other hand, millions of them vote SNP, which gives them the fuel they need to keep demanding another "once in a generation" vote. Meaning we all have to go through the misery of yet another divisive referendum....
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Old 13th Dec 2019, 11:07
  #72 (permalink)  
 
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So, still managing to avoid the numbers and Democracy defined! It really is a shame (apart from appearing gutless) that what is, arguably, the true basis of the democratic process ( i.e. INDIVIDUAL representation of wishes) can be ignored in favour of unrepresentative 'number fiddling'. However, it suits the purposes of the unelected power brokers so reasoned argument is doomed to fail. Onwards and downwards!
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Old 13th Dec 2019, 11:08
  #73 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Krystal n chips View Post
The future foretold, and the principal character......I don't suppose you will ever admit as and when the policies affect you.

https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...emitism-brexit
oh dear KnC, no wonder you have such a one-eyed view on the world. You really should stop reading this type of scaremongering rubbish. I only read the first few paragraphs and my in-built lie detector went into meltdown
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Old 13th Dec 2019, 11:08
  #74 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Nige321 View Post
Has it occured to you that the average voter could see straight through Komrade Korbyn's fantasy spending plans and realised that he was saying anything to get into power?
What planet are you on...?

*
KnC has had a bad night. Many of us have had to realign over the last few years. It takes time (which he has plenty of)
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Old 13th Dec 2019, 11:12
  #75 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by felixflyer View Post
..... protesting about any and all Tory policies.

Thank you Jeremey, on behalf of every Tory voter, we really couldn't have done it without you.
..... and New Labour policies as well
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Old 13th Dec 2019, 11:12
  #76 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Krystal n chips View Post
Thank you, but I really don't need any faux condescending sympathy. There was no hyperbole in my post.

However, as the word junta has clearly affected the semantics, allow me to amend this to...... dictatorship.

The problem with the underlined, is that he, and his Gov't,won't deliver. Labour made a catastrophic error by trying to match, and then outstrip, the Tory largesse promised to the electorate. In five years, Boris, and his policies, can, and will do a lot of damage to many peoples lives because as I say, it's only a matter of time before the "excuses" begin, inevitably supported by his "I got Brexit ( and the UK electorate ) well and truly done ".....and that's going to wear very thin, very quickly once we've left.

He's as about as far removed from a "one nation Conservative " as a black mamba is from being a slow worm and likewise those whom he will chose to surround himself with are unlikely to offer dissenting voices.
Had Korbyn arrived in no 10 this morning he wouldn't have delivered either.
He'd have destroyed thousands of small businesses, big corporation tax increases for EVERY business in Britain, including the 70% with less than 5 people, NOT just the 'Big Corporations'.
Thousands of jobs lost through the idiotic nationalisation of utilities and Openreach.
Billions of pounds lost in pension schemes.
Of course, this wouldn't affect anyone...

Boris isn't great, but with a business and employees, I'll take him any day over Corbyn's fantasies...

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Old 13th Dec 2019, 11:16
  #77 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by andrewn View Post
oh dear KnC, no wonder you have such a one-eyed view on the world. You really should stop reading this type of scaremongering rubbish. I only read the first few paragraphs and my in-built lie detector went into meltdown
Spot on. And she has the temerity to rubbish the right wing press...!
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Old 13th Dec 2019, 11:19
  #78 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Exrigger View Post
Wonder if the EU will now start taking the UK seriously and get Brexit sorted amicably, quickly, and to the benefit of both sides.
The EU just announced they have set their priorities for the future negotiations.
They can begin as soon as the Withdrawal Agreement is ratified and the UK negotiator go to Brussels.
As already mentioned, if the UK accepts an already prepared set of trade deals, things can be done within the year of 2020. If the UK asks for exemptions or special privileges, it is impossible and there might be a cliff-edge by the end of 2020. Except the NI backstop will come into play and the border will be in the Irish Sea.

First thing first, let's see how quickly the UK will have the WA ratified.


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Old 13th Dec 2019, 11:21
  #79 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by The Nip View Post
I wonder why every TV radio/station, every newspaper and all news reports are clearly stating a Tory majority.
Correct, mathematically, in this case it is not true. But we live in the UK. In a GE the party which secures the most seats are referred to as the majority party.
If yourself or CJ wish to complain, start by challenging all those media outlets.
I am sure they will listen to you. We'll wait.
TN, that was strictly TiC intended to wind up CJ (Who is in on my ignore list).
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Old 13th Dec 2019, 11:25
  #80 (permalink)  
 
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Voting choice, has and always will be based on who you want as PM or who you think is the best candidate for your constituency.
For example if you are a diehard labour supporter then it wouldn't matter who was standing in your constituency then your cross would be for the labour candidate. Floating voters have a tendency to make a decision based on who is standing in their area and they think will do the best job.

From my own locality, the Tory (who was the standing MP) candidate's literature had pictures of them and the PM along with things done and planning to do. The Labour candidate had nothing about corbyn at all, no mention in any of the pamphlets pushed through the do either by hand or mail.
None of the other candidates sent out anything and never heard from them apart from an independent stander who seemed to conduct their campaign via facebook.

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