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Hope everyone near London Bridge are ok, shots fired

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Hope everyone near London Bridge are ok, shots fired

Old 1st Dec 2019, 10:49
  #81 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by mikemmb View Post
One detail that doesn’t seem to add up:
(1) Police state they are not looking for anyone else.
(2) Witnesses state attacker had knives taped to his hands.

So did he:
(1) Travel to the event with knives already taped on, so accomplice at home, and how do you travel with knives taped on your hands?
(2) Get knives taped on at event, so accomplice with him.

.......suppose he could have just stopped a passer by and asked them to tape the knives on?

could have have done it himself.

firstly, were the knives taped to both hands, or just one? I’ve not read anything conclusive either way.

if it’s both, tape the first one one, then I’m sure with a big enough hole in the roll you could stick the knifed-hand thru then roll it around the other hand to tape that one on. Combination of teeth and other forearm etc getting the tape onto the 2nd hand.
I doubt they were both neatly strapped like a sportsman. They would have been taped to serve a function- make it harder to drop them or have them dislodged/taken from you.
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Old 1st Dec 2019, 11:12
  #82 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Car RAMROD View Post



could have have done it himself.

firstly, were the knives taped to both hands, or just one? I’ve not read anything conclusive either way.

if it’s both, tape the first one one, then I’m sure with a big enough hole in the roll you could stick the knifed-hand thru then roll it around the other hand to tape that one on. Combination of teeth and other forearm etc getting the tape onto the 2nd hand.
I doubt they were both neatly strapped like a sportsman. They would have been taped to serve a function- make it harder to drop them or have them dislodged/taken from you.
Clearly not very well taped on given that at least one was taken off him.
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Old 1st Dec 2019, 11:35
  #83 (permalink)  
 
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Is there some merit to wearing a fake bomb vest? The previous London Bridge attackers also wore fake vests, I seem to recall. Is the very threat of an explosive belt/ vest thought to be enough to get you out of a tight spot?

Is this one of the things, like taping blades to your hands, recommended in some manual of terrorism somewhere?
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Old 1st Dec 2019, 11:41
  #84 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by DaveReidUK View Post
Electronic tagging has been in use in the UK for around 20 years. AFAIK it relies on the tag being within transmit/receive range of a base station at the wearer's location.

GPS tagging is much more recent (that MoJ handbook is dated 2016) and, as the name suggests, monitors the wearer's location continuously. Usage is gradually being rolled out across the UK.

Electronic GPS tags to track thousands of criminals in England and Wales

It's not clear (to me at least) from the media reports which type of tag the attacker was wearing, unless anyone can clarify ?
According to this report from the BBC (quoted earlier in this thread) he was wearing a GPS tag:https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-50618324
Quote from this article:
When Khan was released on licence, he was subject to a variety of forms of management in the community, as is largely standard for terrorism offenders:

  • Khan was wearing a GPS tag to monitor his specific movements
  • He was sent to a bail hostel in Staffordshire where his comings and goings could be supervised
  • It's likely - but unconfirmed - that he was banned from speaking to his former associates
  • And he was obliged to take part in the government's "Desistance and Disengagement Programme" (DDP)
DDP is now a key part of the counter-terrorism strategy and involves tailored counselling and psychological intervention in the lives of terrorism convicts leaving jail.
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Old 1st Dec 2019, 11:56
  #85 (permalink)  
 
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Given many reports state Kahn was where he was meant to be when he commenced his attack (at a pre-arranged conference involving some ex-offenders, offenders out on licence, and others) I'm not really sure of the relevance of the GPS tag in this case.
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Old 1st Dec 2019, 13:25
  #86 (permalink)  
 
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I mentioned the Secret Barrister upthread (#72).

The author has now posted this on Twitter, referring to a post the PM has made on his own website....

The Prime Minister has basically copied and pasted my blogpost into a thread and passed it off as his own explanation. A blogpost which I had to write to rebut the lies he spent yesterday spouting. This is weapons grade s***housery.
(my ****s).
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Old 1st Dec 2019, 15:50
  #87 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Nothing to see here View Post
Not a pilot (or even a flyer for that matter) but an interested onlooker here for some time now, I wondered if this 'human interest' angle might be of interest
to the audience

Note; just discovered I'm not allowed to post a link as new member so content yourselves with the text......

Brave bystanders chased a terrorist with a fire extinguisher and a 5-foot Narwhal whale tusk to stop him stabbing innocent people on London Bridge.

[...]Incredible footage shows the moment hero bystanders chased Khan down the bridge as he embarked on his rampage brandishing a huge knife. A white-haired man is seen tailing the attacker, who was wearing a black cap and hoody, and spraying him up close with a fire extinguisher.

Two other people quickly run after Khan and one can be seen jabbing him with what is believed to be a huge Narwhal tusk.

[...]A Polish chef named Łukasz has been identified by The Times as the man who was heroically brandishing the tusk and ran towards the attacker as he threatened to detonate his device.

A co-worker told the paper: ‘Łukasz grabbed a nearby pole and ran at him, getting stabbed in the hand in the process but continued to pin him down.

‘Being stabbed didn’t stop him giving him a beating. Łukasz is a hero’.
Brave people indeed.

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Old 1st Dec 2019, 16:04
  #88 (permalink)  
 
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Let's all refer back to my original comments:
There is no way a tag will be transmitting to a satellite. Anywhere.
The tag itself detects an "out of bounds" condition and notifies the wearer with flashing LEDs
VP959's earlier post linking to a BBC report quotes "Khan was wearing a GPS police tag". The police have absolutely nothing to do with tags. Tags are managed by the likes of G4S who have a licence to defraud the public purse apparently (in 2014 G4S had to repay the government £108m after pretending to tag convicts who were either dead or in gaol. In 2017, blow me, they were awarded a£25m contract to supply tags. Meanwhile EMS Capita were awarded the tagging contract (£400m over 4 years)after both G4s and Serco lost their contracts and they found themselves in deep doo doo when it was discovered some of their employees were taking bungs from criminals to fit their tags loosely, in order that the criminals could slip them off and, in the case of one of them, go out and commit attempted murder elsewhere!)
Anyway, I digress; back to VP's BBC links. The 2nd link read better than the first. Until one comes to the end of the item which states: "MI5 has a role looking at prisoners leaving jail". And there were we, thinking MI5 had a lot of better things to do, rather than checking up on Mrs. Jones who has just been released from prison following her 3month sentence for failing to pay her council tax. Oh, and doesn't the "M" in MI5 relate to "Military"?
And, harking back to my comment re the government failing here when Khan asked for rehabilitation/deradicalising, I notice that fell on stony ground. Well, why not? After all, to acknowledge a government failing in this area would ruin all those fancy speeches we have heard over the years, telling us how bloody clever they were rehabilitating these offenders. And that would not fit with the "Deport the lot and hang 'em high" philosophy, would it?
Finally, back to the tags; the link provided by Dave points out that this roll out of the BT version of tags will not amount to more than 1,000 or so prisoners wearing them and the current system remaining in place.
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Old 1st Dec 2019, 16:35
  #89 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by KelvinD View Post
Let's all refer back to my original comments:
There is no way a tag will be transmitting to a satellite. Anywhere.
The tag itself detects an "out of bounds" condition and notifies the wearer with flashing LEDs
VP959's earlier post linking to a BBC report quotes "Khan was wearing a GPS police tag". The police have absolutely nothing to do with tags. Tags are managed by the likes of G4S who have a licence to defraud the public purse apparently (in 2014 G4S had to repay the government £108m after pretending to tag convicts who were either dead or in gaol. In 2017, blow me, they were awarded a£25m contract to supply tags. Meanwhile EMS Capita were awarded the tagging contract (£400m over 4 years)after both G4s and Serco lost their contracts and they found themselves in deep doo doo when it was discovered some of their employees were taking bungs from criminals to fit their tags loosely, in order that the criminals could slip them off and, in the case of one of them, go out and commit attempted murder elsewhere!)
Anyway, I digress; back to VP's BBC links. The 2nd link read better than the first. Until one comes to the end of the item which states: "MI5 has a role looking at prisoners leaving jail". And there were we, thinking MI5 had a lot of better things to do, rather than checking up on Mrs. Jones who has just been released from prison following her 3month sentence for failing to pay her council tax. Oh, and doesn't the "M" in MI5 relate to "Military"?
And, harking back to my comment re the government failing here when Khan asked for rehabilitation/deradicalising, I notice that fell on stony ground. Well, why not? After all, to acknowledge a government failing in this area would ruin all those fancy speeches we have heard over the years, telling us how bloody clever they were rehabilitating these offenders. And that would not fit with the "Deport the lot and hang 'em high" philosophy, would it?
Finally, back to the tags; the link provided by Dave points out that this roll out of the BT version of tags will not amount to more than 1,000 or so prisoners wearing them and the current system remaining in place.
The GPS tags work just the same as every other GPS tag around, or pretty much every 'phone, come to that. There are millions of these things in use daily, and the type used for tracking/controlling offenders is just a tiny percentage of the total. It's pretty obvious that they don't have the means to transmit to a satellite, but they do have the means to transmit and receive cellular data, just like a 'phone. A central server (just like those used to track vehicles) periodically interrogates the tag, checks its status and location, and then determines whether or not a warning or alarm needs to be sent. There's a "fail safe", in that if the tag fails to communicate for any reason, the system will flag an alarm in the same way as if the tag had gone outside the geo-boundary set in the server for that offender. The geo-bounding system is pretty much the same as that used for other high security GPS tags, like those used to track high value shipments, cash, security vehicles etc.

This technology has been around for years, and one of the biggest uses, outside of vehicle and high value shipment tracking, is probably child and vulnerable person tracking. Some friends of ours have a hyper-active youngster, and she always wears a child tracker, so that her parents can just use an app to see where she is at any time. The same systems are used as dementia trackers, too. This site has some info on how they, and their apps, work: https://www.trackershop-uk.com/perso...-trackers.html


The older type of offender tags (the non-GPS ones, used for curfew control) were just low power units that were connected to a transceiver in the approved residence of the offender, and sent an alarm signal to the police/probation service/contractor when the tag was not within range during the curfew period.
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Old 1st Dec 2019, 16:36
  #90 (permalink)  
 
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GPS tracking of convicted terrorists may be a way forward. As the power required to support a transceiver would require being permanently connected to the mains or carting around an enormous battery, this would make those on licence very easy to spot and keep an eye on.

Wouldn’t give good odds on ensuring their safety though.
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Old 1st Dec 2019, 16:41
  #91 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Torquetalk View Post
GPS tracking of convicted terrorists may be a way forward. As the power required to support a transceiver would require being permanently connected to the mains or carting around an enormous battery, this would make those on licence very easy to spot and keep an eye on.

Wouldn’t give good odds on ensuring their safety though.
This one is pretty small and cheap and lasts 15 days between charges: https://www.trackershop-uk.com/pro-pod-6.html

The offender ones need charging every day, I believe, and will signal back to base if they aren't charged when they signal the user to plug the thing in.
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Old 1st Dec 2019, 17:08
  #92 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by VP959 View Post
This one is pretty small and cheap and lasts 15 days between charges: https://www.trackershop-uk.com/pro-pod-6.html

The offender ones need charging every day, I believe, and will signal back to base if they aren't charged when they signal the user to plug the thing in.
using the cellular network or an on ground relay is cheating. What is needed is a stand alone satellite transceiver, only then would the power requirement be a complete impediment to free movement.
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Old 1st Dec 2019, 17:15
  #93 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Torquetalk View Post
using the cellular network or an on ground relay is cheating. What is needed is a stand alone satellite transceiver, only then would the power requirement be a complete impediment to free movement.
May be, but there are millions of these things in use every day. The last couple of cars I've owned have had the same system. I can open an app, and within a few seconds find out where my car is to within a few metres, plus loads of status information (doors locked, windows closed, boot and bonnet closed, cabin temperature, range remaining, etc). I can even send the car navigation destinations, so when I get in it the thing is already set to navigate to where I wish to go, as well as having pre-heated or cooled the cabin, de-iced the screen, etc.

This tracking technology is really pretty incredible, even if it does use terrestrial data links. I can remember when my grandmother lived with us, and started to suffer from dementia. She would often wander off in the middle of the night, resulting in everyone having to get up, get dressed and go out searching for her, often for several hours, and more than once involving the police. If we'd had a dementia tracker (https://www.trackershop-uk.com/perso...-trackers.html ) we'd have been able to locate her in seconds, with no need to involve anyone else.
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Old 1st Dec 2019, 19:56
  #94 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by jolihokistix View Post
Is there some merit to wearing a fake bomb vest? The previous London Bridge attackers also wore fake vests, I seem to recall. Is the very threat of an explosive belt/ vest thought to be enough to get you out of a tight spot?

Is this one of the things, like taping blades to your hands, recommended in some manual of terrorism somewhere?
None of the above. Fake or real vest just guarantees your speedy trip to the ‘promised land’. Law enforcement will certainly shoot first if a “vest” is seen you will be shot chances will NOT be taken, and rightly so, so you can avoid lengthy interviews, boring court appearances and lengthy prison sentences!
David
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Old 1st Dec 2019, 21:08
  #95 (permalink)  
 
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killing them just turns them into martyrs
This argument doesn't stack up.

Part of the purpose of the criminal justice system is to exact retribution on behalf of society. Terrorism strikes at the heart of society and therefore it should attract the most severe possible penalties.
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Old 1st Dec 2019, 22:19
  #96 (permalink)  
 
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VP959: For goodness sake, give it up! Can you perhaps describe the method/equipment "sends signals to a satellite 24 hours a day. "? Once you understand that this is utter nonsense, then you will begin to see why the rest of the crap in the brochure should not be taken at face value. Trackers of varying forms have been in use for quite some time and they all work more or less the same way. The tracking technology is not so incredible. All that happens is a receiver receives signals from a couple of satellites. The satellites only broadcast time signals and it is possible figure out, via calculating the time difference between the received signals, where the receiver is. This can be sent either via the cellular telephone system or via a dedicated private radio network. At no time is the relative peace of any satellite disturbed by an unwanted signal arriving from Bert the Crim's ankle!
Torquetalk has cracked it. I presume the cart needed to get all that kit around would include a generator and a 1m dish antenna, thus as he said, making the offender obvious from quite some distance.
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Old 1st Dec 2019, 22:22
  #97 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by flocci_non_faccio View Post
This argument doesn't stack up.

Part of the purpose of the criminal justice system is to exact retribution on behalf of society. Terrorism strikes at the heart of society and therefore it should attract the most severe possible penalties.
Whether or not it stacks up is irrelevant, given that the UK doesn't judicially kill people any more, though the fact that executing terrorists would indeed create martyrs is one of a number of good arguments for not reintroducing the death penalty.
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Old 1st Dec 2019, 23:02
  #98 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by KelvinD View Post
VP959: For goodness sake, give it up! Can you perhaps describe the method/equipment "sends signals to a satellite 24 hours a day. "? Once you understand that this is utter nonsense, then you will begin to see why the rest of the crap in the brochure should not be taken at face value. Trackers of varying forms have been in use for quite some time and they all work more or less the same way. The tracking technology is not so incredible. All that happens is a receiver receives signals from a couple of satellites. The satellites only broadcast time signals and it is possible figure out, via calculating the time difference between the received signals, where the receiver is. This can be sent either via the cellular telephone system or via a dedicated private radio network. At no time is the relative peace of any satellite disturbed by an unwanted signal arriving from Bert the Crim's ankle!
Torquetalk has cracked it. I presume the cart needed to get all that kit around would include a generator and a 1m dish antenna, thus as he said, making the offender obvious from quite some distance.
Not sure you're reading things correctly, TBH. I've been transparently clear - these things do not TRANSMIT to any satellites (some journo made a fundamental error in reporting that - NOT me). They simply use GPS to obtain position and then communicate over the normal cellular WAN, just like many millions of other connected devices. The cellular WAN connection has been in common use for years for doing this. Anyone can buy a personal tracker for under £100 that will do pretty much everything that the offender trackers do, except geofencing (some will do that too - I believe the dementia trackers have that functionality in the app).

Just take a look at the technology - there are loads of places selling stand-alone trackers that will strap to a wrist and run for two or three days without needing a recharge or battery change. I've given links to one of the popular suppliers earlier, but it seems you couldn't be arsed to take a look. I've just opened the app to check my car (exactly the same technology) and within seconds its position was shown on a map, together with data showing its current status.

If you refuse to believe that this is everyday technology, in use by millions of people worldwide, for everything from vehicle and valuable shipment tracking, through vulnerable and lone worker tracking, to offender tracking, then that's your problem. I'll carry on using it, as I have been for a couple of years now. My friend will continue to strap a tracker to his young doughter's wrist, as they've been doing for a year or too as well, as we know the technology is reliable and just works. For anyone dealing with someone with dementia, these things must be a godsend. Being able to quickly locate someone who just wanders off is potentially life-saving.
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Old 2nd Dec 2019, 00:54
  #99 (permalink)  
 
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VP, one minor clarification - while some systems strictly use GPS signals, the more common setup uses a combination of GPS and cell towers to determine their position. The advantage to this setup is that it still works indoors or other places where GPS signals don't readily penetrate. It's also quicker to initialize on power-up (if I turn on my Garmin GPS after moving a significant distance from where I turned it off, it can take a couple minute to figure out where it is - my phone only takes a few seconds), although for this type of installation that's not an issue since it's seldom depowered.
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Old 2nd Dec 2019, 01:11
  #100 (permalink)  
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All u need is something similar that is chargeable


https://www.ebay.co.uk/i/37273854701...yABEgIMyfD_BwE
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