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Wages and Hours

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Wages and Hours

Old 21st Nov 2019, 12:55
  #21 (permalink)  
 
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I saw Ms Abbott’s latest statement was, “We’re going to borrow enough money to get us completely out of debt.”
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Old 21st Nov 2019, 13:04
  #22 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by blue up View Post
I did 69 3/4 hours in the last seven days. The guy I work alongside did well over 80. If we had to drop to 32 hours then the company would need to hire twice as many people and charge 4 times as much to customers. can't see how that works.
Hiring seems to be your next step if you have to work "well over" 80 a week.
But I recon that owners have to put insane amount of hours sometime to keep their company going.

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Old 21st Nov 2019, 13:41
  #23 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by blue up View Post
I did 69 3/4 hours in the last seven days. The guy I work alongside did well over 80. If we had to drop to 32 hours then the company would need to hire twice as many people and charge 4 times as much to customers. can't see how that works.
Maybe you should double check your maths, or how efficiently you work.

https://www.npr.org/2019/11/04/77616...uctivity-by-40
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Old 21st Nov 2019, 14:24
  #24 (permalink)  
 
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You presumably mean things like Doctor, Surgeon, Plumber, Electrician...........
No, I didn't. I was responding to the post I actually quoted which said

Unfortunately, it's difficult to move up from a minimum wage job. Well paying blue collar work which could be done with few qualifications has nearly disappeared, the car factories and shipyards of the 1980s are all but gone
This was not referring to Doctors or Sugeons but the lack of any opportunities for someone to learn a new skill and change career.

On-line resources can be handy for improving niche skills and as a resource to be used in parallel with workshop/lecture room/classroom teaching but they sure as heck aren't in themselves going to enable a significant career switch.
Completely wrong and years behind whats actually happening in the real world. Online education is fast becoming the preferred option for many. A good portfolio or track record of work will do a lot more to get you a job in a growing number of areas than a qualification. There will of course always be skills that need to be taught in person and, predictably, these were quoted on here but the fact remains that the decrease in manual jobs over the last few decades has been more than offset by the huge amount of skilled roles for all levels that IT and tech bring.

Easy to move between careers ?.....lets start with the location of a new career ..and then consider transport, housing, relocation, family to name but a few.
You can make up imaginary barriers if you like. I would argue that all those issues have also never been easier to solve.

Factories ?....still exist strangely as does the manufacturing sector....and mines you say. True, Mummsy and Daddy may not be in agreement about their children's career choice, and clearly little Tabatha and Tarquin may aspire to something with a grand job title not involving anything too physically strenuous , but that doesn't mean some won't be interested in mining......and the wonderful world of IT.....useful, I agree, but not for everybody and you might think qualifications would come in useful here.
Once youve removed the chips from your shoulders go and have a look in those factories and mines and you will be amazed to see.... IT and technology being used to make the work more efficient and safe. This is only going to progress further and you can hark for a return to the imaginary glory days of someone else working in an unhealthy environment doing manual work but people no longer want to do that.
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Old 22nd Nov 2019, 01:27
  #25 (permalink)  
 
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Trade schools and apprenticeships are grossly under-rated. At least on this side of the pond, they've managed to convince an entire generation that if you don't get a college degree, you're a failure. So we've turned out hundreds of thousands of college graduates (often with tens or even hundreds of thousands in college debts) with degrees in arts, humanities, music appreciation, and similar subjects that have minimal value in the real world (especially at the BA level). Meanwhile, many machine services, plumber, auto mechanic, construction, etc. employers can't find qualified people.
We need to convince the younger generation that there is absolutely nothing wrong with skilled blue collar work - particularly for those who are naturally mechanically inclined.
I tell young people that if they get a good paying job in something like tech support (or, sadly, even engineering), there is little to prevent their job from being outsourced to a lower wage local.
Not much risk that car repair or plumbing is going to get outsourced any time soon...
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Old 22nd Nov 2019, 03:59
  #26 (permalink)  
 
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Middle aged assembly line workers in the Midlands are going to be very difficult to retrain and employ in new fields if they get made redundant.

In the past in Northern Ireland, an unemployed fifty year old man was automatically put straight onto supplementary benefit with no expectation of him ever finding work again.

The high tech computer jobs go to twenty something year olds.
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Old 22nd Nov 2019, 05:32
  #27 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by krismiler View Post
Middle aged assembly line workers in the Midlands are going to be very difficult to retrain and employ in new fields if they get made redundant.
In order to stay relevant (and valuable), people need to evolve their skills as their associated jobs evolve. I spent my entire working career as a Propulsion Engineer. But the work I was doing when I retired was very, very different than what I did when I started, and only distantly related to what I was doing even 20 years previous. Some of it was a result of 'moving up the ladder', but most of it wasn't.
Someone who plans on what they are doing 40 years from now will be the same thing they are doing now will likely become unemployable.
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Old 22nd Nov 2019, 06:48
  #28 (permalink)  
 
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blue up: There is nothing clever about doing 80 hours per week
Agreed.

If I don't do the hours we will have to close and all the staff beneath me will become unemployed. Just walk away? I don't force anyone below me to do any extra hours. I also don't get paid for the overtime. On the up-side, I lost 10kg this year.

Maybe you should double check your maths, or how efficiently you work.
Staff training, handover hours, duplication of work etc. If I halve my working week then doubling the staff would not cover the work that one experienced and motivated person can get done. Where would this new expert come from? Who will train/licence them, and when?
I have not had a full weekend off since October and there are no other staff to cover weekends until January. Where am I going to find an expert for the same money who will work half the weekends for unpaid overtime? The practicalities of an enforced 32 hours week are that I couldn't get the work done.

I guess the smart thing would be to employ me as two people so I could get double the wages, work the same hours and then we'd not need to blow money training a new guy from the ground up.

Last edited by blue up; 26th Nov 2019 at 09:06. Reason: Deleted oblique reference
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Old 22nd Nov 2019, 07:36
  #29 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by felixflyer View Post
No, I didn't. I was responding to the post I actually quoted which said



This was not referring to Doctors or Sugeons but the lack of any opportunities for someone to learn a new skill and change career.



Completely wrong and years behind whats actually happening in the real world. Online education is fast becoming the preferred option for many. A good portfolio or track record of work will do a lot more to get you a job in a growing number of areas than a qualification. There will of course always be skills that need to be taught in person and, predictably, these were quoted on here but the fact remains that the decrease in manual jobs over the last few decades has been more than offset by the huge amount of skilled roles for all levels that IT and tech bring.



You can make up imaginary barriers if you like. I would argue that all those issues have also never been easier to solve.



Once youve removed the chips from your shoulders go and have a look in those factories and mines and you will be amazed to see.... IT and technology being used to make the work more efficient and safe. This is only going to progress further and you can hark for a return to the imaginary glory days of someone else working in an unhealthy environment doing manual work but people no longer want to do that.
You appear to have something of an obsession with IT being the panacea for all sectors and occupations. Just out of interest, which sector, or, better still, occupation are you involved in ?

Online education you say ?....how about we give this a title.....lets think, erm, Virtual Learning Environment perhaps ?.....and it works you will be ecstatic to learn......however, "one size doesn't fit all " and never will. It's used within something called Blended learning which means, sorry about this , old fashioned practical and face to face training is also required.

Feel free to exemplify occupations that require no qualifications and which, seemingly, allow people to move effortlessly between jobs as well being well remunerated.

"Imaginary barriers "....you may have missed the expenses incurred in relocation, the upheaval to education if you have a family, the cost of housing and / or commuting just to mention a few which are far from the figment of any imagination.

Have you ever looked at job titles in recruitment adverts at all ?....if so, you may have noticed some "creative thinking " has been involved to describe a role that, in reality, is nowhere near as grandiose as the title suggests. And then there's the personal prestige to consider. Getting the pinkies dirty is an anathema to those who are obsessed with creating the right impression with their peers.

But, credit where credit is due and you are correct in saying IT has benefitted manufacturing and those employed therein . Of course, if you can show me how changing an engine or setting up the flaps can be accomplished by IT, or changing components in a ships engine room, irrespective of the automation now in use, or construction of roads and buildings or a paramedic performing CPR can all now be done by IT I would be intrigued to say the least.

Finally, where have I ever indicated a wish to hark back to "imaginary glory days " ....short answer...I haven't and never will.

There are those who do have a roseate view of days past, several on the Mil forum in fact, but the reality for anybody who encountered these times is that they are only too glad to see the back of them and have no wish to return.
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Old 22nd Nov 2019, 07:51
  #30 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Krystal n chips View Post
Feel free to exemplify occupations that require no qualifications and which, seemingly, allow people to move effortlessly between jobs as well being well remunerated.

"Imaginary barriers "....you may have missed the expenses incurred in relocation, the upheaval to education if you have a family, the cost of housing and / or commuting just to mention a few which are far from the figment of any imagination.
Don't forget that once upon a time in some people's ideal world (well one person in particular) all that one needed to improve ones job prospects and indeed one's entire life was a bike.....a few decades later it looks like all that is needed a smartphone or tablet. Nevertheless the underlying sentiment appears to be the same.
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Old 22nd Nov 2019, 07:55
  #31 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by blue up View Post
Agreed. Guess what happened to the guy who did the job before me? If I don't do the hours we will have to close and all the staff beneath me will become unemployed. Just walk away? I don't force anyone below me to do any extra hours. I also don't get paid for the overtime. On the up-side, I lost 10kg this year.
Then letís hope for the sake of the people under you (and for you - I bear you absolutely no ill will) you have a succession plan in place otherwise they will be in same boat if god forbid the overwork catches up with you suddenly.
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Old 22nd Nov 2019, 10:26
  #32 (permalink)  
 
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You appear to have something of an obsession with IT being the panacea for all sectors and occupations. Just out of interest, which sector, or, better still, occupation are you involved in ?
I'm in engineering.

Feel free to exemplify occupations that require no qualifications and which, seemingly, allow people to move effortlessly between jobs as well being well remunerated.
It's not about not having qualifications. Many universities and colleges are putting more and more lectures online and have been for a while now as part of the MOOC program. We have started seeing more and more of these offering certificates and diplomas to people that have followed them online. Not a full degree for most but as things progress it's only a matter of time and the qualifications themselves will change. Why lecture to a hundred people in a room if you can live stream online, ask and answer questions and have thousands of students per course all at home or at their workplace? Educational establishments know that having 1000's of students worldwide paying with no commitment to provide housing and materials is the way forward and are moving in that direction.

It is the attitude of the employer that will need to change but that will happen as more and more people that have also been educated via this route become hiring managers.

Of course there will always be jobs which require face to face and hands on teaching and, predictably, the JB luddite society have insisted on naming them but my response was to a statement that it is harder than ever to train for a new career and I do believe that the opposite is the case.

Of course, if you can show me how changing an engine or setting up the flaps can be accomplished by IT, or changing components in a ships engine room, irrespective of the automation now in use, or construction of roads and buildings or a paramedic performing CPR can all now be done by IT I would be intrigued to say the least.
It can't obviously but if you were on minimum wage and wanted to change careers as per the original comment then being able to show you have taken online courses in a variety of mechanical engineering subjects would undoubtedly help you get a job that will provide you with on the job training. Alternatively you can now do an HNC in mechanical engineering via online learning which will allow you to move onto a degree course later and therefore make it easier to get that degree.

you may have missed the expenses incurred in relocation, the upheaval to education if you have a family, the cost of housing and / or commuting just to mention a few which are far from the figment of any imagination.
All of which are made considerably easier or become irrelevant with online education.

So yes, I stand by my comment that it has never been easier to change careers as it is today.
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Old 22nd Nov 2019, 11:01
  #33 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by felixflyer View Post
So yes, I stand by my comment that it has never been easier to change careers as it is today.
For those intellectually equipped to do so that is possibly true....as for the rest?

Can I ask if you have ever taught or instructed in any capacity?
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Old 22nd Nov 2019, 11:19
  #34 (permalink)  
 
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For those intellectually equipped to do so that is possibly true....as for the rest?
Which is anyone with access to the internet on a computer, tablet or phone. As the the phrase 'intellectually equipped' isn't that what learning is all about?

Can I ask if you have ever taught or instructed in any capacity?
Yes, many many people in person. a few years ago I started teaching online and have recently taught my 5000th student. I regularly get emails from people saying my courses have helped them secure their first job in a new industry and change careers.
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Old 22nd Nov 2019, 11:36
  #35 (permalink)  
 
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OK, so now I can see why you are a strong advocate on the subject of on-line learning...

As an example "The rest" I mentioned I am thinking of the modern equivalent of some of the kids I went to school who were not intellectually equipped enough to pass the 11 plus (that dates) me but went on, after to secondary education, to contribute fully to society by for example in one case working as a hospital porter...

For all I know he probably does play candy crush on his smartphone on his commute...but I'm not sure that's a mortal sin, and somebody has to do the work he does.

Anyhow as for training - Can I ask two questions?:

1. Is your considered opinion that you could take absolutely anybody and with the aid of IT/online learning enable them up-skill to an limited or unlimited extent.

2. How many of your students drop out?

(for the sakes of disclosure I've moonlighted at an FE College as a Physics teacher at O and A level and been a flying instructor...and IMHO not all students are as capable of up-skilling as others...and yes, some of that might have been down to the teacher/instructor).
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Old 22nd Nov 2019, 11:57
  #36 (permalink)  
 
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OK, so now I can see why you are a strong advocate on the subject of on-line learning...
I'm not here to sell my courses. When you argue against the growth of online learning you are not arguing with me but pretty much any university including the likes of MIT, Harvard, Oxford and Cambridge who are all producing more and more online content.

Some links for you.

Online Education expected to continue it?s growth in 2019

https://secure.onlinelearningconsort.../online_nation

https://www.insidehighered.com/digit...all-enrollment

Is your considered opinion that you could take absolutely anybody and with the aid of IT/online learning enable them up-skill to an limited or unlimited extent.
Where did I say that? I merely said it has never been easier for people in general to change careers and educate themselves. Which, in true JB fashion, resulted in the luddites trying to conceive situations where that might not be the case for certain people.

Your posts are bizarre and seem to be suggesting that online education does not make it easier for someone to move from low paid role into a new, better paid career because they are not bright enough to operate a mobile phone, tablet or such device. What roles do you envision these people moving into?

2. How many of your students drop out?

Some do, some only need to learn a certain section of the course. Some are learning for work reasons, some for hobby stuff and some just to learn something new. Some join and never seem to watch any of it. What has that got to do with anything?

As an example "The rest" I mentioned I am thinking of the modern equivalent of some of the kids I went to school who were not intellectually equipped enough to pass the 11 plus (that dates) me but went on, after to secondary education, to contribute fully to society by for example in one case working as a hospital porter...
I would argue that the modern equivalent of those people are more adept at using a phone, tablet or laptop and downloading/watching content than most of the university lecturers are at producing and uploading it.
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Old 22nd Nov 2019, 12:23
  #37 (permalink)  
 
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When you argue against the growth of online learning you are not arguing with me but pretty much any university including the likes of MIT, Harvard, Oxford and Cambridge who are all producing more and more online content.
I'm not arguing against it's growth, I'm arguing it's not always an appropriate method of training and may not be appropriate for all students. Do you think it is?

.Your posts are bizarre and seem to be suggesting that online education does not make it easier for someone to move from low paid role into a new, better paid career because they are not bright enough to operate a mobile phone, tablet or such device
Whoa there, I did not say that, I do not think that, do me a favour and please do not put words in my mouth...

What roles do you envision these people moving into?
Since you are the one doing the teaching on-line you tell me - I've already fessed up that I taught very briefly at O and A level so what level are you moving your students from and to?
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Old 22nd Nov 2019, 13:16
  #38 (permalink)  
 
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OK, we can agree to disagree, I never once suggested it is suitable for everyone just that it has made it easier for a large number of people to retrain. That is all.

The fact you think some people are not as you put it 'Intellectually equipped' to learn confuses me but I don't have time to go back and forth about it. I have online courses to teach.
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Old 22nd Nov 2019, 16:15
  #39 (permalink)  
 
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I think that the future is going to be mostly online from the teaching perspective, up until the students need/require face to face and/or hands on teaching. I have family member who is already interacting in a group of engineers who are in various parts of the planet, but with VR technology they are all together when it is required. Apparently when it's up and running they'll be holograms in a room together in the not too distant future!

As to what will happen to all those who for whatever reason aren't intellectually capable, I do wonder. Steady and continuous replacement by robotics, at some point there will be a societal impasse...Korea seems to be the country most keen on embracing such technologies and they are referred to as "our friends the robots" apparently.
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Old 22nd Nov 2019, 16:45
  #40 (permalink)  
 
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Some eight years ago, I attended a careers evening with my daughter at her secondary school.

One of the most interesting facts that came out was that the top ten jobs in currently in demand, did not exist five years earlier.

It was also stated that by the time they got to 30, they could expect to have at least half a dozen different jobs.

People have to be flexible and those who do gain additional qualifications or experience (whether on line or otherwise), will be the ones most in demand.
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