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Grenfell Report Leak

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Grenfell Report Leak

Old 30th Oct 2019, 18:21
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Grenfell Report Leak

1) Why is no investigation being carried out as to who leaked "sections" of the Report?
It allowed the BBC to indulge in "scoop" reporting when it should not have been news until the day the Report was officially published

2) Do others feel that to release one part focussing on the LFB to be deliberate to conceal the real failings of the Council scimping on the contract cost and also Rydon for installing substandard cladding

3) The subcontractors who installed incorrect sized double glazing and "sealing" the gaps with a non fire retardant material.

It was the consequences of these measures where no one considered the effects of a fire now being spread through breached fire breaks.

4) The workmen who did the poor installation that should be pilloried, as they must know in their hearts that breaking through walls and floors fatally compromised the fire resistant integrity of the building.

5) Rydon installed second rate cladding that was NOT fire resistant. Scimping on materials and quality control means they have the blood on their hands, NOT London Fire Brigade, who had no idea that the fire would spread through flammable cladding which, would just have been spectacular, had not the fire resistance of the exterior been compromised. The instruction to remain was best practice for a building with a proper fire resistance.

By releasing only the criticism of LFB seems designed to mitigate the guilt of those really responsible, the contractors.
I object most strongly that a witch hunt has been artificially promoted against LFB.
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Old 30th Oct 2019, 19:41
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Try reading the report. Start with the introduction, then skip to Part 34 which lists the issues that will be addressed in Phase 2 of the Inquiry, including most of the items on your list.

Grenfell Tower Inquiry - Phase 1 Report
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Old 30th Oct 2019, 20:33
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As DaveReidUK rightly says the next stage is where the sh*t hits the fan so to speak. From following this (at least listening to Eddie Mairs excellent podcast series) there will be plenty of blame to spread. Already those that are in the firing line are playing the blame game and attempting to divert the responsibility elsewhere, sickening.

Unlike previous whitewashes justice this time may well be served, going by the current report, however I think I read somewhere there has yet to be a successful prosecution for corporate manslaughter in the UK.
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Old 30th Oct 2019, 22:36
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OK, let me say I'm no expert in Root Cause Analysis but please let's not forget the dodgy fridge freezer .
I understand Whirlpool are in the firing line along with others.
The second link is quite interesting as well.
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Old 30th Oct 2019, 23:13
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I agree with DaveReid's comments but I firmly of the opinion that the report is being leaked/released in this manner in order to stitch up the London Fire Brigade. And it is succeeding with all the vitriol being poured on the LFB. Everyone seems to have latched on to the "Stay inside and await rescue" policy. It should be remembered that if the flats had been built and fitted out according to existing rules, the flats would have been relatively safe in that the fire would have been contained, at least for a while. LFB persisted with this policy on the evening as they believed assurances from all and sundry that the flats were built according to the regs. Nobody had told them otherwise.
I saw a Fire Officer on TV last night expressing his disquiet, saying words to the effect of without the council turning a blind eye, without the cladding manufacturers producing an incendiary device rather than fire-proofing etc there would probably have been a less drastic fire and the LFB might not have had to send squadrons of fire engines. And he was right; there is a whole queue of culprits to be investigated here but, by the time the next report is issued, it will be too late. LFB will have been indelibly stained with the brush of the report thus far.
And of course, in the Commons today, more than a few MPs reminded us of who was responsible for paring LFB down to below safe working levels. Clue: He used to Mayor of London and is known to utter things like "Whiff Whaff"
It seems to me the inquiry is working backwards. Surely they should have investigated the circumstances pre-fire and moved on from there. The Fire Brigade were the last to be involved and, I would think, would naturally be at the end of queue.
One last question here; why does it take so long to complete these inquiries? Look at the last fiasco, the report (and blaming ceremony) for the Police Scotland helicopter crash. How has it taken 3 years to come up with that report?
And what of the child abuse inquiry? I forget how long that has been going on for but I seem to remember long enough to have used up 3 learned judges!
Being a Liverpool supporter, I have to wonder how it took 30 years to get a man in the dock facing trial over the deaths of 96 LFC fans
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Old 30th Oct 2019, 23:28
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There is a trend to modern business where everyone is expected to do things correctly and no one checks. Quality is not inspected and people who used to be responsible for safety no longer have power to intervene. As fires become ever fewer, fire brigade staff are reduced.
Here is an alternative.
The fire brigade is made responsible for reducing the number of fires and deaths as well as for putting them out. Buildings are inspected for fire safety by the firefighters who have nothing to do because there are so few fires. If they don’t meet fire regs, they are closed, or rebuilt. Why does everybody have a problem with safety - except when people die? Why were sprinklers not fitted as part of the refurb, when they were a tiny fraction of making the place look nice with cladding? Why are tower blocks allowed to be built with only one stairwell?

Maybe some of these questions will be answered in part two of the enquiry, but it is more likely that a couple of scapegoats are found and everything else is left the same.
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Old 30th Oct 2019, 23:38
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Originally Posted by KelvinD View Post
One last question here; why does it take so long to complete these inquiries? Look at the last fiasco, the report (and blaming ceremony) for the Police Scotland helicopter crash. How has it taken 3 years to come up with that report?
The AAIB report into the Clutha crash was published more than 4 years ago. That, of course, did not impute blame as it is not the AAIB's role to do so.

The Fatal Accident Inquiry was announced following the AAIB's report, after some delay due to resource constraints and the need to confirm that there would be no criminal proceedings resulting from the crash.

It's very hard to argue with the FAI's and AAIB's findings that the accident would not have occurred had the pilot followed the checklist procedure in respect of a Low Fuel warning, which he failed to do.

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Old 31st Oct 2019, 01:08
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Australia is trying to address the issue of building cladding as we have thousands of building clad in the same stuff as Grenfell, not hearing of much resolution as the finger pointing of whose responsibility continues.

Recently two buildings in Sydney have had structural failures, no one seems to be able to be held accountable.

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Old 31st Oct 2019, 02:07
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massive elephant in the room wrt the residents.
Fire doors missing (removed and sold) stuff dumped in passageways.
Nobody in authority dare broach the subject though.
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Old 31st Oct 2019, 05:12
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Report in a local paper that a fairly new private residential block that needed cladding issues addressed in the wake of Grenfell now requires serious structural cracking to be repaired, with the residents being temporarily rehoused. There have been two blocks of flats that I think were timber-framed destroyed by fire in the SE in the last few months, fortunately with no loss of life. I'm watching small blocks go up around here in next to no time.

Complaints about a council instigated scheme being built behind me are many - demolition not addressing an asbestos problem, site run off blocking drains leading to flooding, un-notified weekend working because the schedule has slipped, stupidity leading to all pavements being blocked, one block having construction issues and work on it has halted ...

Is the race to build new accommodation ultra-quick leading to short cuts/shoddy work?
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Old 31st Oct 2019, 07:45
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Originally Posted by ex_matelot View Post
massive elephant in the room wrt the residents.
Fire doors missing (removed and sold) stuff dumped in passageways.
Nobody in authority dare broach the subject though.
Citation or a credible reference for that?
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Old 31st Oct 2019, 09:07
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ISTR reports that some of the fire door self-closers were defective, maybe some confusion there.

That said, given that the fire spread via the burning cladding which allowed it to penetrate the apartments from the outside, it's hard to see how open (or even missing) internal fire doors would have made much difference to the outcome.
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Old 31st Oct 2019, 09:53
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Originally Posted by DaveReidUK View Post
ISTR reports that some of the fire door self-closers were defective, maybe some confusion there.
I've only had time to skim read parts of the report but I think that specific issue gets a mention.

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Old 31st Oct 2019, 10:08
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Someone I knew died and his boss was the first to be convicted, this was 2011

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Old 31st Oct 2019, 15:14
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Grenfell is ablaze like a roman candle within 10 minutes - LFB arrive and most of the guys and girls either on the way to this shout, or when they arrived said they had never seen a fire like it, and within 15 minutes of them arriving on scene it was obvious to many of them and their seniors that this fire was out of their control.
Had it been questioned that the ''Rule Book'' of their Stay Put SOP was inept here, and a full EVAC started then at that point of throwing the Rule Book away, then most folk would have likely lived.

There is no question of the incredible Bravery shown by the LFB officers attending and what trauma they too suffered on that night, but hindsight will show that an Executive decision should have been the bleeding obvious - Lets get the feckkin residents out of here PDQ...

The Chief fire Officer for London Dany Cotton shows a strange lack of remorse and of her candor, which I find compellingly uncomfortable with to witness - She refuses to resign and her comments of her actions and her whole stance on the Grenfell tragedy are incredulous..

Dany Cotton does now show some empathy somewhat here after the report was leaked yesterday
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Old 31st Oct 2019, 15:46
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Imagine what would have happened if, instead of following the supposedly well-proven and authorised plan, which was to continue to adopt the citadel strategy, the first officers on scene had decided to evacuate everyone, only for dozens to then have died on the narrow staircases. What would happen after the event then? Would the fire officers be praised for breaking the rules and ordering an evacuation, despite the subsequent deaths, or would they be pilloried for having taken a maverick decision?

Worth remembering that there were no emergency fire exits in this tower block. It was designed not to have them. The design principle was that each flat would remain a fire-resistant citadel, as the whole place was (originally) made from concrete. The emergency access staircase is only a metre or so wide, and only intended to be used if the lifts break down. Clearly the lifts can't be used when there's a fire (they are one of the things that I think get automatically isolated for safety) so just how are hundreds of people going to be evacuated in an orderly way, down a very narrow access staircase that is already littered with fire hoses and firefighters moving upwards?
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Old 31st Oct 2019, 16:01
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Strangely a lady recounted last night she survived the fire by using the lift to get down, so it must have been still working...she was lucky.

Nothing made sense that night.

The residents phoning in on 999 were repeatedly told to stay put as per the SOP - but had the 999 operatives been told by fire officers down at the scene to now tell everyone to get out then the outcomes may have been different as the report notes.

The 999 desk were not taking the flat numbers from the residents who called in either, so the FB officers on the ground did not know who was still where, and on what floors etc
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Old 31st Oct 2019, 16:21
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The problem remains one of getting people out, though. The only viable way out was by using the lifts, but every lift I've ever seen has had a sign telling people not to use it in the event of fire. Not sure how the 999 operators could have controlled the escape by giving clear directions to people who were already in fear of their lives, seems a near-impossible job to me. At the time, early reports confirmed that the narrow staircase was filled with smoke from the fire that was being drawn up the stairwell. There was only the one narrow staircase for all 24 floors, so people escaping would not only have had to deal with the smoke, but would also have had to negotiate fire fighters and hoses that were trying to get up the tower at the same time. It just doesn't seem realistic to claim that all the occupants could have been safely evacuated, especially as some of them were elderly, infirm or small children.
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Old 31st Oct 2019, 16:22
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IMHO the perfect storm of deregulation, self certification, out of date fire strategy, degradation of fire compartmentation, bottom line price driven maintenance, refurbishment without adequate risk management, no adequate quality control on refurbishment and lack of accountability on completion and handover.

Most accidents are the result of a series of issues arising and not being adequately dealt with. This tragedy started back in the days of self certification being introduced and risk being passed to people in a position of being unable to manage risk.

So starting the blame game with the reactors to the event, the fire brigade, is bizarre, I only hope that those who were in a position of proactively being able to prevent the tragedy and didn't are exposed, but I won't hold my breath.
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Old 31st Oct 2019, 17:32
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Damned if you do......

Agree with the point VP959 makes.
The Chief Officer Dany Cotton doesn't present herself with much authority or confidence but I have some sympathy with her postion.
In many arenas over several years, various mistakes and tragedies have brought about a plethora of Laws and Standard Operating Procedures; a process to follow for any given situation
to ensure the right outcome, instead of having mavericks 'flying by the seat of their pants', and making it up as they go along.

Different arena, but here is a man who stepped outside the legal framework and SOPs, all for the greater good, and look what happened.
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