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Sectarianism in Glasgow

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Sectarianism in Glasgow

Old 12th Sep 2019, 04:22
  #41 (permalink)  
 
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Here's a wonderful song, very appropriate to this thread, composed and sung by the late-lamented Stan Rogers. He probably would have gone on to greater fame if he hadn't died in the 1983 Air Canada 797 in-flight fire and emergency landing at Cincinnati.


I took back my hand and I showed him the door
No dollar of mine would I part with this day
For fueling the engines of bloody cruel war
In my forefather's land far away.

Who fled the first Famine wearing all that they owned
Were called 'Navigators', all ragged and torn
And built the Grand Trunk here, and found a new home
Wherever their children were born

Their sons have no politics. None call recall
Allegiance from long generations before
O'this or O'that name just can't mean a thing
Or be cause enough for to war

And meanwhile my babies are safe in their home
Unlike their pale cousins who shiver and cry
While kneecappers nail their poor Dads to the floor
And teach them to hate and to die

It's those cruel beggars who spurn the fair coin
The peace for their kids they could take at their will
Since the day old King Billy prevailed at the Boyne
They've bombed and they've maimed and they've killed.

Now they cry out for money and wail at the door
But Home Rule or Republic, 'tis all of it shame;
And a curse for us here who want nothing of war
We're kindred in nothing but name.

All rights and all wrongs have long since blown away
For causes are ashes where children lie slain
Yet the damned U.D.L and the cruel I.R.A
Will tomorrow go murdering again.

But no penny of mine will I add to the fray
"Remember the Boyne!" they will cry out in vain
For I've given my heart to the place I was born
And forgiven the whole House of Orange
King Billy and the whole House of Orange
If you've never heard of Stan, do yourself a favour and listen to some of his songs on Youtube. It's hard to pick favourites but a good one to start with is "Northwest Passage", which has often been referred to as Canada's Second National Anthem. Another good one is "Barrett's Privateers". One of his bandmates suggested that they need a good sea shanty, so Stan went ahead and wrote one. It's so good that some bands recorded it as 'Traditional'.
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Old 12th Sep 2019, 09:28
  #42 (permalink)  
 
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Sectarianism in Scotland is not helped by the Catholic churches insisting on separate education for Catholic children. The result of this is that we have two kinds of state school - one for Catholics and one for all other religions. This system is a perpetual guarantee of a divided society,it is a taboo political subject - never spoken about and we all pretend it does not exist.
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Old 12th Sep 2019, 09:40
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I agree bcg. From an academic point of view I has a superb education in a Jesuit school in Glasgow, but we were completely isolated from all other religions. In recent years I have been in contact with the school and am pleased to see that it now welcomes pupils from all faiths and none.
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Old 12th Sep 2019, 11:47
  #44 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by bcgallacher View Post
Sectarianism in Scotland is not helped by the Catholic churches insisting on separate education for Catholic children. The result of this is that we have two kinds of state school - one for Catholics and one for all other religions. This system is a perpetual guarantee of a divided society,it is a taboo political subject - never spoken about and we all pretend it does not exist.
Have parents not a right to decide what education they want for their children ?

There are schools with a religious ethos in england and wales, strange that their is always huge demand for them v state schools.
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Old 12th Sep 2019, 11:49
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Originally Posted by Tankertrashnav View Post
I agree bcg. From an academic point of view I has a superb education in a Jesuit school in Glasgow, but we were completely isolated from all other religions. In recent years I have been in contact with the school and am pleased to see that it now welcomes pupils from all faiths and none.
Religious schools were always happy to welcome others subject to availability of places.
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Old 12th Sep 2019, 23:26
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This may have been the case but I certainly do not remember any non Catholic boys at my school, which was a fee paying prep school which I suspect must have been grant maintained as the fees were ludicrously low. Attendance at Mass on various saints' days throughout the year was compulsory, as was religious education and confessions were heard weekly on school premises and you could not dodge them. I'm not sure if supporting Glasgow Celtic was compulsory but I do know that when Celtic won the European Cup in 1967 the then headmaster gave the whole school two days holiday!
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Old 13th Sep 2019, 07:39
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I went to a protestant equivalent fee paying school in Glasgow in the 60s. Religious Education never mentioned Catholicism. We did however, play rugby against Catholic schools and I remember one game being refereed by a nun. She sent one of my side off for swearing.
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Old 13th Sep 2019, 10:18
  #48 (permalink)  
 
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We
Originally Posted by racedo View Post
Have parents not a right to decide what education they want for their children ?

There are schools with a religious ethos in england and wales, strange that their is always huge demand for them v state schools.
If what the parents want causes division and sectarianism then it is not reasonable - would you be happy to have separate education for all religions? The Hindus,Muslims, Seventh day Adventist’s,Mormons,Jehovas Witnesses Scientologist , are surely entitled also. Would you be happy for your taxes to finance these schools? Religion should be kept out of schools,religious education can be provided outside the normal education system. The children can learn to live with their peers without the religious division.
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Old 13th Sep 2019, 10:53
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Originally Posted by bcgallacher View Post
We
If what the parents want causes division and sectarianism then it is not reasonable - would you be happy to have separate education for all religions? The Hindus,Muslims, Seventh day Adventistís,Mormons,Jehovas Witnesses Scientologist , are surely entitled also. Would you be happy for your taxes to finance these schools? Religion should be kept out of schools,religious education can be provided outside the normal education system. The children can learn to live with their peers without the religious division.
What a load of BS.

Strange that religios schools are the ones oversubscribed as parents wish their kids to go there because they teach them things like values that are notiously absent from the state sector who wish to impose this years "must have" ideas.

The issue is Scotland on Catholic schools is the open sectarian attitudes of discrimination against anybody Catholic that has existed for decades across Scotland.

The 2 clubs in Glasgow has one being very clear it will not allow sectarianism in selecting its players. The other establishment one allowing it to persist plus openly allowing senior members of the club to host Loyalist organisations and being happy to sing sectarian songs.
https://www.thefreelibrary.com/FINDL...ME.-a060420377
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Old 13th Sep 2019, 22:05
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Originally Posted by bcgallacher View Post
We
If what the parents want causes division and sectarianism then it is not reasonable - would you be happy to have separate education for all religions? The Hindus,Muslims, Seventh day Adventistís,Mormons,Jehovas Witnesses Scientologist , are surely entitled also. Would you be happy for your taxes to finance these schools? Religion should be kept out of schools,religious education can be provided outside the normal education system. The children can learn to live with their peers without the religious division.
bcgallacher
Well I totally agree. There are many parts of the world that would do well to learn the lessons of reducing division and encouraging more tolerance. Thankfully the process has already started in NI.

racedo
I take your point about values and discipline but would suggest that is more to do with political interference and quality of leadership rather than religious doctrine. As for the sectarian attitudes, they are not across Scotland as you suggest but rather isolated in small pockets mainly in the central belt, particularly in the urban west where it began. The Glasgow clubs still have an issue, I agree, but things are improving slowly. The Edinburgh clubs and, to a lesser extent the Dundee clubs, still have their problems but theyíve only ever been copy cat rivalries anyway. Please donít view everything Scottish through the prism of Glasgow.

India Four Two
Stroke of genius putting the words under that Stan Rogers youtube link, made the message all the more powerful to listen and read at the same time. Thankyou.

Northwest Passage. Followed your recommendation on youtube and happened across this in the comments.
Paul Shields
1 year ago

His son attended the school I taught at, during one of the assemblies he sang this song to the entire school. He was in grade 5 at the time. Stan had already passed away but he got up and sang the entire song by himself. You could hear a pin drop. Well done Nathan Rogers and rest in peace Stan. Love your music and your respect for your countries stories.
Suddenly got stingy eyes after that.
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Old 13th Sep 2019, 22:41
  #51 (permalink)  
 
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I am Glasgow born and bred. My mum was a Londoner and my dad a Glaswegian. Until the day she died my mum could not get her head round any aspect of sectarian thinking. Nonetheless you were immersed in wall-to-wall bigotry from Day One. My background was Protestant and as a young lad I remember Mrs Munro across the street telling me that I should never trust a Catholic. I asked her how she knew who was a Catholic and who was not. She assured me that Catholics had lower hairlines because they were more dense than Protestants and also the smell was a good indication. Around this time I was befriended by an Irish Catholic family further up the road who I played football with. I started to support Celtic because they did and I had no understanding of the religious significance of it. Slowly, I realised that the O’Donnells were just wonderful people and all this stuff I was hearing about Catholic’s was just rubbish.

Many years later I was wearing my Celtic shirt in the back garden whilst digging the foundations to a conservatory for the Countess. To help me do the donkey work I employed a guy from Glasgow to help me who had a drink problem and whose life was a terrible mess. He turned out to be a fanatical Rangers supporter. After he had been working for a while he asked me what I did for a living. I told him I was an airline pilot. He looked very puzzled and was quiet for a while. He then said, ‘That’s amazing - I didn’t know they let Celtic supporters do jobs like that’!

By the way, great song above. Another beautiful song in a similar vein is this one - I first heard it on a Billy Connolly documentary about Northern Ireland. It is called, ‘There Were Roses’ -

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Old 13th Sep 2019, 23:46
  #52 (permalink)  
 
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racedo - you seem to be under the impression that bigotry in Glasgow is one sided and is always directed toward Catholics. I can assure you that when I grew up we Catholics were just as bigoted as our Protestant neighbours. I can remember when as RCs we had a "holiday of obligation" on a saint's day, if we had nothing better to do we would go round to a Protestant school and taunt the pupils through the railings. I have noticed that mainstream media tends to portray religious bigotry as a one way problem, but in my experience it was most definitely two way.
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Old 13th Sep 2019, 23:54
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Scottish Protestants are worse bigots than the Catholics, It's much easier to say "F*** the Pope" then it is to say "F*** the Moderator of the General Assembly of the Church of Scotland"
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Old 13th Sep 2019, 23:57
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Count
I've taken the liberty of tracking the words, hope you don't mind.

My song for you this evening, it's not to make you sad
Nor for adding to the sorrows of our troubled northern land
But lately I've been thinking and it just won't leave my mind
I'll tell you of two friends one time who were both good friends of mine

Isaac he was Protestant and Sean was Catholic born
But it never made a difference, for the friendship it was strong
And sometimes in the evening when we heard the sound of drums
We said it won't divide us, we will always be as one

There were roses, roses
There were roses
And the tears of a people ran together

It was on a Sunday morning when the awful news came round
Another killing had been done just outside Newry Town
We knew that Isaac danced up there, we knew he liked the band
But when we heard that he was dead we just could not understand

Now fear it filled the countryside there was fear in every home
When late at night a car came prowling round the Ryan Road
A Catholic would be killed tonight to even up the score
Oh Christ it's young McDonald they have taken from the door

There were roses, roses
There were roses
And the tears of a people ran together

Isaac was my friend he cried, he begged them with his tears
But centuries of hatred have ears that do not hear
An eye for an eye, it was all that filled their minds
And another eye for another eye till everyone was blind

I don't know where the moral is or where this song should end
But I wonder just how many wars are fought between good friends
And those who give the orders are not the ones to die
It's Scott and young McDonald and the likes of you and I

There were roses, roses
There were roses
And the tears of a people ran together

There were roses, roses
There were roses
And the tears of a people ran together
..beautiful song, beautiful voice. Something for my xmas list I think..

In the dim distant past I was a 'fire breathing blue nose' albeit from the Edinburgh side. Years later I look back and remember how most of us were normal civilised folk in the week but turned into ignorant bigoted intolerant animals just to watch a football match!!

Last edited by OilCan; 14th Sep 2019 at 00:14. Reason: add missing verse
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Old 14th Sep 2019, 07:23
  #55 (permalink)  
 
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At least the Glasgow council has got the right idea, hopefully we can remove Sectarian wording from the current problems and call it exactly what it is.

From the BBC webiste.

Glasgow City Council said it planned to stop "morons intent on bringing mayhem to the streets of our city

Justice Secretary Humza Yousaf said it was depressing to be asked to legislate for disorder committed by grown men "fighting battles of centuries gone by


I enjoy the irony of that last quote as it would be difficult to assume the religious leanings of Humza.
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Old 14th Sep 2019, 08:22
  #56 (permalink)  
 
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Sectarianism in Scotland is still nothing when compared to NI were people self-segregated way beyond anything laid down in law.

Separate bus stops, only patronising businesses run by your own kind and don't try to buy a property on the wrong side of the street unless you want it firebombed.

NI will have made considerable progress if it improves to the level of Glasgow, at least the Scottish city doesn't have 25 foot high barricades dividing the waring factions.
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Old 14th Sep 2019, 09:08
  #57 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by India Four Two View Post
Here's a wonderful song, very appropriate to this thread, composed and sung by the late-lamented Stan Rogers. He probably would have gone on to greater fame if he hadn't died in the 1983 Air Canada 797 in-flight fire and emergency landing at Cincinnati.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pwld86XndSY



If you've never heard of Stan, do yourself a favour and listen to some of his songs on Youtube. It's hard to pick favourites but a good one to start with is "Northwest Passage", which has often been referred to as Canada's Second National Anthem. Another good one is "Barrett's Privateers". One of his bandmates suggested that they need a good sea shanty, so Stan went ahead and wrote one. It's so good that some bands recorded it as 'Traditional'.
Thanks for this. I've a CD here, that I bought after watching a band (many times) in a bar in Halifax, Nova Scotia. One of my favourites on that is "Barrett's Privateers". The band came from Newfoundland, I think.
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Old 15th Sep 2019, 08:02
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I was born and raised in a tenement in Glasgow. My family was protestant, not devout or rabid, but not catholic. Above us on the top floor were two catholic families and we played with their kids with no thought to sectarianism or indeed religion. So it was not until later in my life that I gave any thought to the fact that my two aunts, dad's sisters, were catholic, so I guess my dad rebelled.
I can understand that we have a 'tribal' nature but the depth of bitterness of sectarianism escapes me. Mob mentality at its very worst.
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Old 16th Sep 2019, 13:36
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I was brought up in Glasgow until age 18. For the next 30 years I worked and lived in other European and African countries where nobody gave a fig for my religious affiliation. As a nominal Christian I even married into a majority Muslim family where my worth was judged by my personality and not my origin. When I eventually returned to work in Glasgow I assumed sectarianism would have been consigned to history however it took only a few hours for the inevitable questions about 'which school' and 'which football team' to be asked by my workmates.

It seems from this remark that not much has changed

Originally Posted by Grayfly View Post
. Justice Secretary Humza Yousaf said it was depressing to be asked to legislate for disorder committed by grown men "fighting battles of centuries gone by

I enjoy the irony of that last quote as it would be difficult to assume the religious leanings of Humza.


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Old 16th Sep 2019, 13:46
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I can only disagree, I think it has changed quite a lot. It is only the tribal headbangers that continue to hide their lust for violence behind 'religious bigotry' and when that banner falls they will find another. Humza is spot on.
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