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Till the Tanks Roll In

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Till the Tanks Roll In

Old 28th Jul 2019, 14:46
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Till the Tanks Roll In

Wonder how long?
But it's not some massive square in Beijing where some cover-up was relatively easy.
Was it hundreds or really thousands?
Xi must be itching to make the call, some kind of call. How dare they criticize the infallible and glorious ChiCom party.
It's Hong Kong, a bastion of free enterprise still under the terms of a solemn diplomatic deal and very much front and centre in the whole world's watching.
The puppets aren't dancing to the correct party tune and don't seem to be going away even after the subway T-shirt thugs.
Bet they weren't a spontaneous bunch of patriotic citizens.
Must be tough for the leadership - no one seems to like them .
Not Honkers, not Taiwan, not the Uyghurs, not the other national neighbours, not the white supremacist, colonial Western devils.
Everything they do seems to turn into rubber dog poo.
Tut, tut.....what to do?
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Old 28th Jul 2019, 23:51
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I've wondered myself. To the point where I dread checking the news sites each morning because I have a sinking feeling that one morning I will wake to see tanks on the streets of HK.
I blame the British who gave the people of Hong Kong the idea that freedom was something they were entitled to. Damm you Brits.

On the other hand the Chinese regime may be content to ride this out. Hong Kong is a jewel. I don't think they feel this freedom idea will spread much outside Kowloon.

Hopefully pragmatism will out.
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Old 29th Jul 2019, 00:07
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This is a foretaste of the problems that the Chinese Dictatorship will eventually face on the mainland. As the population becomes wealthier, better educated and travelled, they will start to demand the same freedoms as they see everywhere else in the world, let alone Hong Kong. Once this genie is out of the bottle you cannot get it back.
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Old 29th Jul 2019, 00:09
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With the internet and social media making news instantly available worldwide, I doubt we’ll see another Tiananmen Square massacre. However, pour encourage les autres, the Chinese government will crack down hard. Lots of overtime coming up for riot police, possibly troops involved if it gets too far, such as the airport being closed.
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Old 29th Jul 2019, 08:57
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ďI blame the Brits..Ē. Assuming thatís intentional irony, itís not even about freedom or democracy as we would recognise. Only freedom from being hauled off by plain-clothes goons at 4am to prison in China. Sorry, my mistake; education centre did I say prison?
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Old 29th Jul 2019, 11:44
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What is the conviction rate in China?
99.9%
China. In China, the justice system has a conviction rate of about 99.9%. This has been attributed to the use of torture and other coercive measures to extract confessions and pressure on courts and prosecutors.
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Old 29th Jul 2019, 12:31
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Originally Posted by ShotOne View Post
ďI blame the Brits..Ē. Assuming thatís intentional irony, itís not even about freedom or democracy as we would recognise. Only freedom from being hauled off by plain-clothes goons at 4am to prison in China. Sorry, my mistake; education centre did I say prison?
You assume correctly but hasn't it gone beyond the original reason for the protest. They now want greater freedom and democracy. Uncharted waters for the Chinese government.
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Old 29th Jul 2019, 13:19
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But the Brits are absolutely responsible for the woes of Hong Kong and China, that is to say, for the great sorrow of the Chinese people.
In the late 18th century and then again in 1853 the British were the instigators of the Opium Wars with the Chinese. Both the East India Company and then the British east India Company were involved, with the full collusion of the British governments of the time, in forcing the Chinese to import truly vast quantities of Indian opium. From this militarily enforced trading, involving up to four thousand tons of opium a year, the companies raised taxes from the Chinese and en forced the acceptance of opium as payment for tea exported to the UK. The Chinese did not want opium. They were delivered it at gunpoint and told to use it to pay for a debt they had never accumulated in the first place.
There is much, much more to this sorry tale but the facts of the matter are that the British, as in private enterprise and HMG, enforced a devastating drug addiction upon much of the Chinese coastline and its ports, enforced the drug trade by superior force of arms and gave rise to the term 'gun boat diplomacy' to describe the activities of the Royal Navy when its ships bombarded Ting-ha on the Macao coast.
For more than one hundred and fifty years the British government enforced drug addiction on the Chinese by force of arms, both naval and military. You'd be surprised to hear that the French helped out a little too? How can you blame a race of people for a little erratic behaviour when they've had that sort of legacy imposed upon them in the past by a nation that categorically refuses to accept any responsibility for those crimes of the past.
Freedom and democracy?
Uncharted waters for HMG when it comes to the poor old Chinaman who were bought and sold by the Brits, never mind slavery laws, cheap labour on the profits from the opium trade. Before they opened laundries in San Francisco they were called Coolies and were extremely useful in the railway laying business in what was to become the United States.

Last edited by cavortingcheetah; 29th Jul 2019 at 14:00.
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Old 29th Jul 2019, 15:38
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Originally Posted by cavortingcheetah View Post
But the Brits are absolutely responsible for the woes of Hong Kong and China, that is to say, for the great sorrow of the Chinese people.
In the late 18th century and then again in 1853 the British were the instigators of the Opium Wars with the Chinese. Both the East India Company and then the British east India Company were involved, with the full collusion of the British governments of the time, in forcing the Chinese to import truly vast quantities of Indian opium. From this militarily enforced trading, involving up to four thousand tons of opium a year, the companies raised taxes from the Chinese and en forced the acceptance of opium as payment for tea exported to the UK. The Chinese did not want opium. They were delivered it at gunpoint and told to use it to pay for a debt they had never accumulated in the first place.
There is much, much more to this sorry tale but the facts of the matter are that the British, as in private enterprise and HMG, enforced a devastating drug addiction upon much of the Chinese coastline and its ports, enforced the drug trade by superior force of arms and gave rise to the term 'gun boat diplomacy' to describe the activities of the Royal Navy when its ships bombarded Ting-ha on the Macao coast.
For more than one hundred and fifty years the British government enforced drug addiction on the Chinese by force of arms, both naval and military. You'd be surprised to hear that the French helped out a little too? How can you blame a race of people for a little erratic behaviour when they've had that sort of legacy imposed upon them in the past by a nation that categorically refuses to accept any responsibility for those crimes of the past.
Freedom and democracy?
Uncharted waters for HMG when it comes to the poor old Chinaman who were bought and sold by the Brits, never mind slavery laws, cheap labour on the profits from the opium trade. Before they opened laundries in San Francisco they were called Coolies and were extremely useful in the railway laying business in what was to become the United States.
Feel better now?

You've assigned blame to history, just like we do with race

So who's going to pick up the pieces today and fix it ?


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Old 29th Jul 2019, 16:19
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Originally Posted by cavortingcheetah View Post
But the Brits are absolutely responsible for the woes of Hong Kong and China, that is to say, for the great sorrow of the Chinese people.
In the late 18th century and then again in 1853 the British were the instigators of the Opium Wars with the Chinese. Both the East India Company and then the British east India Company were involved, with the full collusion of the British governments of the time, in forcing the Chinese to import truly vast quantities of Indian opium. From this militarily enforced trading, involving up to four thousand tons of opium a year, the companies raised taxes from the Chinese and en forced the acceptance of opium as payment for tea exported to the UK. The Chinese did not want opium. They were delivered it at gunpoint and told to use it to pay for a debt they had never accumulated in the first place.
There is much, much more to this sorry tale but the facts of the matter are that the British, as in private enterprise and HMG, enforced a devastating drug addiction upon much of the Chinese coastline and its ports, enforced the drug trade by superior force of arms and gave rise to the term 'gun boat diplomacy' to describe the activities of the Royal Navy when its ships bombarded Ting-ha on the Macao coast.
For more than one hundred and fifty years the British government enforced drug addiction on the Chinese by force of arms, both naval and military. You'd be surprised to hear that the French helped out a little too? How can you blame a race of people for a little erratic behaviour when they've had that sort of legacy imposed upon them in the past by a nation that categorically refuses to accept any responsibility for those crimes of the past.
Freedom and democracy?
Uncharted waters for HMG when it comes to the poor old Chinaman who were bought and sold by the Brits, never mind slavery laws, cheap labour on the profits from the opium trade. Before they opened laundries in San Francisco they were called Coolies and were extremely useful in the railway laying business in what was to become the United States.
Sure those young HK residents rioting are reflecting back on your narrative as the reason they're taking direct action. I'm certain of it they are thinking if the Brits hadn't gotten my forefathers stoned, my eyes wouldn't sting from teargas.
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Old 29th Jul 2019, 16:28
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The blame has been assigned to the British.
This is Boris's great foreign enterprise opportunity, to offer to mediate between the two sides as being in common, both the former colonial power and the persecutor
I wonder whether it would be possible to manufacture an opium gas bomb. Would that not be a better exercise in humane crowd control than kettling?
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Old 29th Jul 2019, 18:10
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Are you seriously blaming UK for this? If we judge by what happened in the 1800ís itís worth pointing out that the Chinese government at that time routinely inflicted the most savage tortures on its people, often for trivial offences. And to this day executes more people than the rest of the world put together!
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Old 29th Jul 2019, 18:34
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The nastiness of the Chinese to their own people is an internal affair, rather the same way as British football hooliganism is to British culture and on the relevant subject of that level of blood thirsty cruelty the punishment of hanging drawing and quartering was not abolished in the UK until 1870. That doesn't make anything right but does perhaps aid with the perspective of a civilised western nation in the time of the present monarch's great great grandmother.
As for Hong Kong riot blame, one can no more blame the British than one can blame the environmentalists who have made it tiresomely difficult to buy a new Mah Jongg made with the bamboo tiles inlaid with real ivory.
History has many nuances of cause and effect.
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Old 30th Jul 2019, 07:57
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"the punishment of hanging drawing and quartering was not abolished in the UK until 1870"

Been downhill ever since...
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Old 30th Jul 2019, 14:17
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The last person hanged drawn and quartered was in the 1700ís and even then (which will disappoint currawong) he was actually hanged then beheaded. So letís add that to the list of historical facts that have nothing whatever to do with HK today. Perhaps you were agreeing that point in your last post; hard to be sure with all the double-negatives

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Old 30th Jul 2019, 23:20
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Duh! My point was that the British left Hong Kong with the shocking idea that freedom of expression was a good thing. Damm those Brits who think freedom and democracy is good thing.

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Old 31st Jul 2019, 06:40
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Originally Posted by cavortingcheetah View Post
The nastiness of the Chinese to their own people is an internal affair.
Can you further clarify?
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Old 31st Jul 2019, 08:20
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Originally Posted by Steepclimb View Post
Duh! My point was that the British left Hong Kong with the shocking idea that freedom of expression was a good thing. Damm those Brits who think freedom and democracy is good thing.
The irony of the current situation with the protesters in HK is that during all the years during which the British ran the colony there was no truly representative democracy, so far as I can recall. They are now apparently demanding democracy from a new colonial power (China) which is never going to grant such a concession. Why weren't they smashing windows, breaking into government building and confronting the police under British rule?

The original, and totally understandable beef they had with the Hong Kong authorities was the proposed extradition agreement with China, which given the way the Chinese justice (?) system operates was totally unacceptable. They, in my opinion, have now gone too far, and with the imperative of having the best possible relationship with China in the coming years, the UK government might be well advised to tone down their support for the protesters, since the whole movement has been hijacked by extremists who likely have a bigger agenda, and who's actions will surely result, eventually in the ending of the 2 systems policy and the arrival of Chinese forces in the territory.
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Old 31st Jul 2019, 09:31
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eventually in the ending of the 2 systems policy and the arrival of Chinese forces in the territory.
It will never happen. Too much Politburo cash in the Hang Seng.

It was the same after the Carnation Revolution in Portugal in 1974 when they offered Macao back to the Chinese. It was refused for the same reason; too much money sunk into the casinos.
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Old 31st Jul 2019, 09:50
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Chinese forces in the territory? Nah, never happen

At the moment: between 6,000 and 7,000

Regiments/Units

  • Infantry Garrison Brigade (Air Assault) (Unit 53300)
Formerly the 1st Red Regiment of 1st Red Division, 1st Red Army. In 1949, the regiment comprised the 424th Regiment, 142nd Division, 48th Army. In 1952, the 142nd Division was assigned to 55th Army and the 424th Regiment renamed the 430th Regiment. In 1970, the 144th Division was renamed as the 163rd Division and 430th Regiment renamed as 487th Regiment.
  • 3 infantry battalions (Air Assault/Heliborne)
  • 1 mechanized infantry battalion
  • 1 artillery battery
  • 1 engineer battalion
  • 1 reconnaissance/special ops company (named 5-min Response Unit, some of them later transferred to the Macau Garrison to form the a new Quick Reaction Platoon there)
  • 1 intelligence gathering battalion
  • 1 Armour Convoy
  • 1 Logistics Base, Shenzhen. (Unit 53310)
  • 1 Motor Transport Company, Shao Fe
  • wiki
Plus a small naval and air force presence.
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