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Anderton School protests.

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Anderton School protests.

Old 11th Jun 2019, 12:19
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Anderton School protests.

Iíve been following the protests at Anderton Primary School, Birmingham with great interest and wondered what other Ppruners thought?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-englan...ngham-48580310


Itís very difficult to sort the wheat from the chaff here, and which side is telling the truth, but having just watched an interview with a moderate Imam from the community, Iím minded to sympathise with the parents. His point was that the main bone of contention was not that the Muslim community had an issue with LGBT issues, but that Islam doesnít condone sex outside of marriage - whatever the persuasion. He also highlighted a fact that many parents at the school had their own private beliefs and that these werenít being respected by the teaching about homosexuality as they didnít feel it was age appropriate. There is plenty of time in secondary education to bring in the more complex facets of human relationships. Plus, virtually every teenager has online access to a whole world out there that even the most vigilant parent canít stop,

Having had had a similar issue when I worked at a C of E school, I see where he is coming from. Part of our syllabus to teach 11 year olds was sex and relationships. Many of the pupils struggled to come to terms with the basic Ďmechanicsí without over complicating it with alternative options. Virtually every pupil in my class was either more keen on getting the lesson over and done with so they could go and play football or chase around with their friends. They either werenít that interested in the whole thing or found it highly embarrassing. We decided as a group to omit the LGBT section - not from a moral point of view, but because even talking about straight relationships was going over their heads. The only thing at 11 years most of them wanted to know about was the physical changes they would be going through.

My own young adult children were never taught specifically about LGBT but have a very open and tolerant view. They not bothered about any of their friends who happen to be gay or bisexual - just accept them as mates.

Fascinating when the freedom to practise a religion clashes with the freedom to practise a lifestyle.
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Old 11th Jun 2019, 19:06
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What we are seeing is the raising and education of children being taken from the parents and transferred to the state. Religion, tradition and customs are being trampled underfoot to satisfy this 'New' society that has come into being.

Pink Floyd had it.

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Old 11th Jun 2019, 19:39
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I'm not sure anyone comes out of this very well. Undoubtedly some of the parents have rather regressive beliefs, and some of the ringleaders of the protest don't even have children at the school so are undoubtedly following an agenda of their own. At the same time, the head teacher strikes me a being something of a zealot herself.

But perhaps the thing that disturbs me most is that this is a Primary School. I'm all in favour of sex education including the validity of same sex relationships. But at Primary School?
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Old 11th Jun 2019, 20:13
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Originally Posted by Andy_S View Post
I'm not sure anyone comes out of this very well. Undoubtedly some of the parents have rather regressive beliefs, and some of the ringleaders of the protest don't even have children at the school so are undoubtedly following an agenda of their own. At the same time, the head teacher strikes me a being something of a zealot herself.

But perhaps the thing that disturbs me most is that this is a Primary School. I'm all in favour of sex education including the validity of same sex relationships. But at Primary School?
Problem is a lot of the "parents" are no such thing, but local extremist agitators. That said I am 100% behind them, primary school is no place to put ideas into the heads of very malleable minds. I think it's no coincidence that the head happens to be one or more of LGBT.

To illustrate the sign of the times there is a large banner outside our local Sainsbury saying "we proudly support LGBT" (sorry might have missed some letters off that). I can't imagine what they are supporting them with, but if involves profits made from my purchases perhaps I should take my business elsewhere. I am not against LGBT, just don't support them, I tolerate them. I would never abuse them, and as long as they keep their sexual preferences within the privacy of their own homes they can, so far as I am concerned, do exactly what they like. I don't appreciate having their preferences rammed down my throat by the media and business trying to look inclusive, good or whatever else.
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Old 11th Jun 2019, 20:53
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I found it rather ironic over here that merely suggesting that we might discuss this curriculum further, (and its effect on pre pubescent students) could get a guy on the way to a public, metaphorical, hanging by those preaching tolerance and free speech.
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Old 11th Jun 2019, 21:59
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A classic case of the irresistible force meeting the immovable object. The end result will interesting to say the least.
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Old 13th Jun 2019, 10:13
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Originally Posted by ATNotts View Post
I am not against LGBT, just don't support them, I tolerate them.
I would suggest that in certain sections of the community this is not good enough, the "if you are not for us you are against us" mantra is becoming more common. Unless you toe the party line and sing the party song with gusto you will be taken as an oppressor.
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Old 13th Jun 2019, 10:33
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Curious

I am surprised this topic hasnít sparked greater debate on here.

It is hard to know which side to come down on really without knowing knowing all the facts.

I would be genuinely interested to know what the more liberally minded regulars on this forum think. They have been a little conspicuous by their absence to be honest.

In modern Britain we are at pains to preach acceptance and understanding towards minority groups but what do we do when two minority groups come up against each other? How does the liberal mindset justify a course of action?

I realise this looks like I am sh1t stirring but I really am not. I want to know how someone whose mind works differently to mine can make sense of the situation and how they would solve it.

I doubt Iíll get any joy but it doesnít hurt to try.

BV
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Old 13th Jun 2019, 11:31
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Originally Posted by Bob Viking View Post
In modern Britain we are at pains to preach acceptance and understanding towards minority groups but what do we do when two minority groups come up against each other? How does the liberal mindset justify a course of action?
The irony is that both parties in this dispute are actually quite illiberal.
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Old 13th Jun 2019, 11:49
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Is the school really teaching LGBT values, or are they really saying, Families are no longer a man a woman and a child?
Choices and life is no longer binary like in the past.
The fact that one very vocal party has stated that they should be allowed to teach the child how they see fit, even when they don't have children at the school, are protesting outside of a primary school and ignoring a court order and they haven't been moved on...versus not all families are the same.
This is massively in bad taste and I would not have my child attending a school that has protestors outside. Either I remove my child from the school, the Judiciary remove the protestors or someone will remove them - they are then branded Far-Right.
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Old 13th Jun 2019, 11:59
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Spunky Monkey

And there is the irony. If you remove the protesters how can you be branded far right? Because whichever side of the argument you come down on you could justify that you are being liberal by supporting an oppressed minority.

BV
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Old 13th Jun 2019, 12:24
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Indeed BV - So let them protest outside the Council Offices or the Courts, not outside a Junior School full of under 13s. After all the school is only carrying out the policy of the Government and Council.
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Old 13th Jun 2019, 12:48
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It is indeed very odd that something so controversial has attracted limited comment here.

In modern society, abusing minorities is unacceptable and both religions and lifestyles can be classed as minorities. However they can abuse each other as is the case here. The Chief Rabbi recently issued important guidance to his flock about LGBT matters and quite simply, despite the act of male homosexuality being 'banned' in Judaism, that is no reason to ignore, cast aside or abuse people who are in the LBGT camp. Quite the reverse; they should be permitted to take their full place in society.

However, there is a difference between that level of acceptance and teaching what are really alternative lifestyles to young children. From a basic biological perspective, homosexual sex cannot create children and thus the vast majority of 'couples' are heterosexual; anything else is alternative. I would not want my children being taught at a very young age that alternative is acceptable; it sows the seeds for dissent and poor behaviour. Children need boundaries and as they grow older those boundaries widen to include areas which were previously unseen and unknown. My children are now 21, 19 and 14. They are fully aware of alternative lifestyles now and the older ones have gay friends. I am comfortable with that because they have the basic knowledge to see that a traditional lifestyle is really the norm. Anyone claiming that I am being discriminatory for saying that a family with two parents of the same sex is the same as a traditional family of two parents of different sex is denying the facts of life.
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Old 13th Jun 2019, 14:34
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I would suggest that the children need to know about such relationships at puberty: the problem is that puberty comes at different ages, so if you wait until year seven, you might be too late for some and too early for others.

Disregarding the rule of law is another matter....
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Old 13th Jun 2019, 16:12
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Originally Posted by Espada III View Post
Anyone claiming that I am being discriminatory for saying that a family with two parents of the same sex is the same as a traditional family of two parents of different sex is denying the facts of life.
I'd have thought that you saying two things are the same is unlikely to lead to accusations of being discriminatory.

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Old 14th Jun 2019, 12:16
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Surely it would be OK to answer questions honestly as, and if, they came up? But to force young children to address adult matters if they have no interest is ridiculous.
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Old 14th Jun 2019, 13:08
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I think some people havenít actually looked into the whole story. This is to be done on an age appropriate basis. Year R, 1, 2 just shown books with a story that has 2 mums (or dads) and the story goes like any other mainstream story. No mention of that fact that they are same sex (in detail). Anyone who has a child in for instance class 1 just imagine taking one of your childrenís reading books and substituting Mr and Mrs Wilbur for Ms and Ms Wilbur. The rest of the story stays the same.

Obviously as as you go up in year groups the message gets more pronounced, but by that time the kids are used to it and donít think much of it.

Anyone that hat is worried about climate change should be thankful for the LGBT community. Anyone who thinks reducing CO2 is doable of a worldwide scale is delusional, too many differing policies and priorities. The number one way is to reduce the population. Maybe this is just nature restoring the balance? I have a few LGBT friends and with the exception of one couple none want to have children.

Schools should take take no notice of religious beliefs (unless you are a religious school obviously) as religion is such a small minority of the U.K. population.
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Old 14th Jun 2019, 13:14
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My problem with this issue is that I understand both sides!
The kids are too young, ............but the change in education does need to happen some time.
If it can be done sensitively, then get on with it.
I guess the physical danger inherent in large noisy protests is a problem. So get them to protest at the Local Authority, not at the skool.
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Old 15th Jun 2019, 04:56
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From a basic biological perspective, homosexual sex cannot create children and thus the vast majority of 'couples' are heterosexual; anything else is alternative. I would not want my children being taught at a very young age that alternative is acceptable
“Give me the child for the first seven years and I will give you the man.”

Ignatius Loyola/Voltaire
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Old 21st Jun 2019, 10:37
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Originally Posted by Bob Viking View Post
I am surprised this topic hasn’t sparked greater debate on here.

It is hard to know which side to come down on really without knowing knowing all the facts.

I would be genuinely interested to know what the more liberally minded regulars on this forum think. They have been a little conspicuous by their absence to be honest.

In modern Britain we are at pains to preach acceptance and understanding towards minority groups but what do we do when two minority groups come up against each other? How does the liberal mindset justify a course of action?

I realise this looks like I am sh1t stirring but I really am not. I want to know how someone whose mind works differently to mine can make sense of the situation and how they would solve it.

I doubt I’ll get any joy but it doesn’t hurt to try.

BV
Bob Viking,

As no one appears to have taken you up on your offer, I shall have a go. I don't regard you as shit stirring, it seemed a reasonable ask. As a liberal minded individual I think the case here is clear. Informing young children of the existence of same sex families and relationships and gender choice and difference seems to me an eminently sensible thing to do as it is an early beginning of growing tolerance and understanding in an individual, and as no one in the schools is promoting any particular type, there can be no protests at brain washing. The individuals protesting outside the schools are doing so because THEY do NOT believe in tolerance and understanding, and they ARE promoting one particular type of gender existence, the one that their religion tells them is the only correct one. I have no issue with them believing that, but they have no right to force their opinions on young children, even their own. There are no Muslim or Christian children, only the children of Muslim and Christian parents, and this early educational approach is helping these children make up THEIR minds as opposed to their parents making their minds up for them. This can only be to overall societies good, and help to build a more tolerant peaceful world. IF those children grow up believing that the traditional type of sexual relationship is for them, then all well and good, but at least there is a better chance that they will be tolerant of others who make a different choice because they feel differently.

No one here is pushing homosexuality or gender fluidity down these young children's throats, they are merely making them aware of the existence of such things, and that has to help prepare them for the world and society they are about to enter. If they perceive this sort of diversity to be normal, then that is how we bring about the end of people being discriminated against and attacked for having such feelings and beliefs.

No one is discriminated against, sacked, beaten, tortured or killed for being straight and wanting a male/female family relationship, and that is how it should be. But people ARE discriminated against, sacked, beaten, tortured and killed for being gay or gender fluid, and that is simply wrong. This is how we start to change that.

The protesting parents have a right to protest. I believe that they do NOT have a right to picket young children at a school in such a threatening and intimidating manner.

Only my opinion of course, but that is what you asked for. I hope that helps in some small way.
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