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South Africa

Old 25th May 2019, 17:17
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South Africa

Met a white South African couple from Natal who have recently moved to UK with their kids. Their children experienced racial discrimination in their Natal school and this, coupled with concerns over family safety outside their home prompted the move. They are very happy in UK and amazed at the friendliness of local folk and sense of security.

Seems they are not the only folk leaving SA for similar reasons; sad to see racial discrimination in reverse being practised, together with less security.
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Old 25th May 2019, 19:09
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Trouble is black on white isn't seen as racial discrimination - its affirmative action.
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Old 25th May 2019, 19:35
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I'd be cautious about just accepting a view that there has been racial discrimination. I met an aircraft engineer from SA a few years ago, who'd claimed that he had been subject to "black on white" racial discrimination. Over the course of a few months I learned that the reality was that he viewed whites as being superior, and had an engrained view that allowing majority rule in SA was just wrong, as, in his view, black South Africans just weren't fit to be in any position of power.

Pity, as he had me convinced that he was a victim for a fair time.
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Old 25th May 2019, 22:03
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Originally Posted by VP959 View Post
I'd be cautious about just accepting a view that there has been racial discrimination. I met an aircraft engineer from SA a few years ago, who'd claimed that he had been subject to "black on white" racial discrimination. Over the course of a few months I learned that the reality was that he viewed whites as being superior, and had an engrained view that allowing majority rule in SA was just wrong, as, in his view, black South Africans just weren't fit to be in any position of power.

Pity, as he had me convinced that he was a victim for a fair time.
Have to agree,some whites will never accept the current politico,but as usual the the truth lies somewhere in between, on the other hand the ANC are a basket case, Crime, Eskom etc.
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Old 25th May 2019, 22:58
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They're lucky they were able to get out, white farmers are being murdered at the rate of one a week, a quarter of whites there now live in poverty.

and had an engrained view that allowing majority rule in SA was just wrong, as, in his view, black South Africans just weren't fit to be in any position of power.
He may have a valid point considering that the electricity grid is on the verge of collapse, the tap water is undrinkable, nearly every state enterprise has been looted of funds, corruption is endemic and violent crime is totally out of control with SA being the rape and murder capital of the world.
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Old 25th May 2019, 23:30
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Anywhere you are likely to be will find the tap water is perfectly drinkable. The electricity grid is inadequate - our recent problems were caused by Zuma's pal, the Guptas, who got contracts to supply coal - what they delivered was of such poor quality that the power stations struggled. Nearly every state enterprise has been looted of funds by Zuma and his pals - corruption is widespread but not nearly of Nigerian proportions - yes, and Ramaphosa is working on it. There is a lot of violent crime, but to say that it is totally out of control is a considerable exaggeration - SA being the rape and murder capital of the world (trying to catch up with the USA!).

Everything is far from rosy (apart from the food and the incredible beauty all around).

Give Ramaphosa a year and we'll see how it goes.

Mac
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Old 26th May 2019, 01:34
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corruption is widespread but not nearly of Nigerian proportions - yes, and Ramaphosa is working on it.
Do you mean he is trying to bring it up to Nigerian levels or trying to reduce it ? His net worth is over 6 billion Rand ($500 million), where did that come from ?

South African power stations are very dependent on skilled maintenance, which they are not getting, hundreds of km of steel piping being eroded by low quality coal. Once the pipes start fracturing and the stations drop off the grid it's game over. Already the diesel turbines are running full time , these are very expensive to operate and meant as a backup only.

With the current state of the Vaal River it's only a matter of time before you'll have to boil tap water prior to drinking it.

The beauty is there but with the number of attacks on tourists walking the hiking trails in the Cape, you'd be well advised not to get too close to it.

THe USA has plenty of violent crime but not to the extent of South Africa, and they have competent police to deal with it

There were high hopes for Emmerson Mnangagwa when he took over but he has achieved very little. Given the extent of the problems faced I doubt Cyril will be able to achieve very much. The top men in the ANC have moved their money out and can easily relocate to their mansions in Dubai once the wheels really come off.
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Old 26th May 2019, 03:21
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Originally Posted by krismiler View Post
They're lucky they were able to get out, white farmers are being murdered at the rate of one a week, a quarter of whites there now live in poverty.
Unfortunately over 50 South Africans (almost all black) are murdered every day. Are those victims not worthy enough for the rest of the world to be shocked at their plight, or is it limited to white farmers only?

Again with whites living in poverty, anyone living in poverty is a tragedy but are you suggesting that it’s only blacks in South Africa who should be subject to poverty?

There’s also evidence that black farmhands are more likely to be murderers than white farmers. Is the world only to have sympathy for victims of crime dependent on their skin colour?

More black farm workers are killed than white farm workers'

I’m not denying there are substantial problems in South Africa but some of these “white genocide” theories that are pushed by white nationalist and identarian groups are totally manufactured for domestic political agendas.
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Old 26th May 2019, 03:38
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Perhaps worth mentioning that the recent elections seemed to go very smoothly and peacefully. In contrast to the SOP (in most third world countries) of starting a rampage of arson and mob violence or even a civil war if your party happens to get fewer votes than the other.
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Old 26th May 2019, 04:23
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Unfortunately over 50 South Africans (almost all black) are murdered every day.
This is mostly black on black violence so not news worthy, if it was whites murdering blacks it would be front page across the world.

The recent Time magazine feature on inequality, with the front page aerial photo of Sandton/Alexander implied that whites still owned the roost, neglecting to mention that 1/4 are living in poverty and many houses in Sandton are owned by the new black elite.
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Old 26th May 2019, 04:28
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Originally Posted by krismiler View Post
This is mostly black on black violence so not news worthy,
I wasn’t talking about the “newsworthiness” of the murders however. Are you seriously saying the world should care more about white farming murder victims in South Africa than any black victims, because the black victims aren’t “newsworthy” enough?

The recent Time magazine feature on inequality, with the front page aerial photo of Sandton/Alexander implied that whites still owned the roost,
I don’t think I need any statistics to see the average White South African is better off than the average Black South African.

There some poor whites and ruch blacks, but overwhelmingly the poverty issues are with the black populace not the white one.
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Old 26th May 2019, 06:07
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Of course black lives matter, if they stopped killing each other that would be a good start.

South African whites are the victims or reverse apartheid with discrimination in employment but no one is condemning the new government like they did with the old one.
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Old 26th May 2019, 08:46
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I went to SA in 1973, living in every major city for various lengths of time, I met Mdme in Cape Town and we produced two kids, one in Durban and one in Cape Town. We finally got out in 1997 with virtually nothing. Leaving behind 18 members of my wife's immediate family. I feel somewhat qualified to speak on the subject.

Having seen my friend who had been riddled with AK47 fire by a bunch of BLACK cretins having target practice from a moving "bakky", while he was hanging up a sign with the name of his house on it. He survived for a few years initially in agony and later with continuous pain. My friend and colleague at work, abducted in a van by BLACKS with pistols, driven to a remote location, beaten to near death and left to rot under the sun before he was found by hikers after three days lying unconscious in the open air. I visited him in hospital, I saw his face and body, blackened and scorched, he lived, but was unable to work again. I have driven the squatter camp roads to help people and children who are are starving and homeless, and the bereaved of every tribe. However, it does not suit the Media to "personalise" the suffering and pain equally, because it does not fit with the liberal agenda.

What is happening across SA simply put, is a reversion to the worst kind tribalism by people who live every day in a world that any civilised nation cannot comprehend. WHITES do not occupy a place in this tribal hierarchy and are generally considered as aliens, to be exploited, violated, used, and destroyed. For this is how tribes in Africa interact with each other. BLACK ON BLACK violence is the norm and has been part of this tribal culture for eons. Perhaps in another 10,000 years, the tribes may attain a level of civilisation that approximates to what the cultured nations have now. Which does not bode well because we will probably have wiped everyone off the globe by then.

In our pre-departure family discussion, we worked through the pluses and minuses, informing the kids that if we undertook this venture, no money would be available for Uni, and we would all have to work at whatever job we could get until we made our own success. It was a unanimous decision to go. After leaving, one of our kids was able to achieve his dream and become a pilot at the top of his game, another is a financial PR Exec. We have been able to assist a number of our family who can, to get out, those who cannot, we continue to support as best we can. Load shedding means households get electricity for 2-3 hours PER DAY, water is becoming so scarce inland that stand pipes and tankers are in operation, the telephone system is decrepit and expensive, the money's going somewhere. The Farmers, Engineers, Managers, have left where they can, and are welcomed across the world for their sound work ethic and skills.

Our daily calls to relatives there are characterised by, "They" shot "John" or "Cobus" or "Piet", on an adjacent farm, last night, tying his wife up on the bed before raping and murdering her and stealing their booze and a few rand. Their kids are going to stay with James on the Krysfontein farm". Sometimes I get to the point where I can only suffer with them and pray for our family's safety.

What is happening is a human tragedy on every level, Syria and Daesh it is not, Apartheid it is not, Ideologically motivated, it is not, Tribalism it is, which is worse?

Go in peace,

IG

Last edited by Imagegear; 26th May 2019 at 08:59.
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Old 26th May 2019, 11:58
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Originally Posted by Imagegear View Post
I went to SA in 1973, living in every major city for various lengths of time, I met Mdme in Cape Town and we produced two kids, one in Durban and one in Cape Town. We finally got out in 1997 with virtually nothing. Leaving behind 18 members of my wife's immediate family. I feel somewhat qualified to speak on the subject.

Having seen my friend who had been riddled with AK47 fire by a bunch of BLACK cretins having target practice from a moving "bakky", while he was hanging up a sign with the name of his house on it. He survived for a few years initially in agony and later with continuous pain. My friend and colleague at work, abducted in a van by BLACKS with pistols, driven to a remote location, beaten to near death and left to rot under the sun before he was found by hikers after three days lying unconscious in the open air. I visited him in hospital, I saw his face and body, blackened and scorched, he lived, but was unable to work again. I have driven the squatter camp roads to help people and children who are are starving and homeless, and the bereaved of every tribe. However, it does not suit the Media to "personalise" the suffering and pain equally, because it does not fit with the liberal agenda.

What is happening across SA simply put, is a reversion to the worst kind tribalism by people who live every day in a world that any civilised nation cannot comprehend. WHITES do not occupy a place in this tribal hierarchy and are generally considered as aliens, to be exploited, violated, used, and destroyed. For this is how tribes in Africa interact with each other. BLACK ON BLACK violence is the norm and has been part of this tribal culture for eons. Perhaps in another 10,000 years, the tribes may attain a level of civilisation that approximates to what the cultured nations have now. Which does not bode well because we will probably have wiped everyone off the globe by then.

In our pre-departure family discussion, we worked through the pluses and minuses, informing the kids that if we undertook this venture, no money would be available for Uni, and we would all have to work at whatever job we could get until we made our own success. It was a unanimous decision to go. After leaving, one of our kids was able to achieve his dream and become a pilot at the top of his game, another is a financial PR Exec. We have been able to assist a number of our family who can, to get out, those who cannot, we continue to support as best we can. Load shedding means households get electricity for 2-3 hours PER DAY, water is becoming so scarce inland that stand pipes and tankers are in operation, the telephone system is decrepit and expensive, the money's going somewhere. The Farmers, Engineers, Managers, have left where they can, and are welcomed across the world for their sound work ethic and skills.

Our daily calls to relatives there are characterised by, "They" shot "John" or "Cobus" or "Piet", on an adjacent farm, last night, tying his wife up on the bed before raping and murdering her and stealing their booze and a few rand. Their kids are going to stay with James on the Krysfontein farm". Sometimes I get to the point where I can only suffer with them and pray for our family's safety.

What is happening is a human tragedy on every level, Syria and Daesh it is not, Apartheid it is not, Ideologically motivated, it is not, Tribalism it is, which is worse?

Go in peace,

IG
To get an idea of the magnitude of corruption under Jacob Zuma's ANC government, I suggest you read "Licence To Loot" by Stephan Hofstatter and/or watch this short YouTube clip. The 1980 historical novel "The Covenant" by James A Michener is also worth a read from an historical point of view.


I sincerely hope that President Ramaphosa can reverse the past/current corrupt practices and make significant improvements for ALL South Africans so that it does not emulate its neighbour to the North.

My wife and I lived there from 1970 until 1986; we raised two children and then left to pursue a career change "on the other side of the world" so I have no personal experience of the "load shedding" or other fiascos post September 1986. I have, however, maintained contact with people and organisations in South Africa and I still take an interest in the peoples and politics of the other countries we have called "home" over the years.


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Old 26th May 2019, 12:49
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For anyone with more than a passing interest in South African events, I can highly recommend this man’s channel over on YouTube. He left his homeland for safety in Australia and now puts out two or three short videos with the sort of information that the mainstream media won’t show. The link below is a random video of his, many more are available on his channel.

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Old 26th May 2019, 15:52
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I live in the UK but have a property in Cape Town. Have spent a lot of time around Africa, with my job, and spent the first 20 years of my life a lot in Nigeria where my father worked. I love Africa as a continent but its main problem is summed up with one word and that is EDUCATION. What the ruling elite realise is that if they starve the majority of education then that majority will lack the ability to make their own decisions and then vote tribally. There is nothing wrong with the brains of the majority black population in South Africa and given equality and an education they are just as clever as the white population. Some of the private schools in CT offer scholarships to people from the townships and at the end of their education the black kids are just as clever as the white kids. When you have an education you have the ability to assess the facts and to vote intelligently rather than tribally. In the Western Cape the DA continue to rule, but this time with a reduced majority. I have travelled a lot around SA and have seen the difference in the infrastructure that the ANC control and that of the Western Cape. That controlled by the ANC is a mess compared with what the DA has achieved in the Western Cape. When I talk to the indigenous population about this dilemma they say that the DA has done a good job in the WC but when it comes to voting they are still controlled by tribal loyalty.

The problem also is the state of mind of the leadership in the evolution of time. We have developed from a feudal mentality to where we are now over hundreds of years. You cannot do it over night and Africa has to go through the process as you cannot convert from a dictatorship (which the majority of Africa is) to true democracy quickly.

Any interesting video called Race of Life (white privilege), an American video, describes a lot of the problem in Africa


I have had this conversation a lot with people in SA and the UK and something somebody said in SA made me think. When I said that people in SA vote tribally they said but you do the same in the UK. I said this is not the case as we do not have tribes in the UK and then they said, yes you do, you have the Conservative tribe and the Labour tribe etc. Made me think a bit!!
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Old 26th May 2019, 17:02
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Just like Imagegear, I arrived in South Africa to work in 1973. To be honest, I hadn't gone there to work because there was nothing else. It was far more simple than that; in 1967, I spent a short time with HM Forces in newly independent Botswana (newly named to boot, it had previously been Bechuanaland) and when I left I often said I would do my utmost to get back there one day to see how the place and the people were getting on. So, when I saw a job advertised in the South African Navy's dockyard in Simonstown, I saw that as my chance and went for it. I was a little disappointed with my visit as the place had changed a lot. The first thing I noticed was the pub where we had drunk during our time there. The bar was packed with supposed Zimbabwean "freedom fighters". (At least that's what they said they were). One bloke tried to give me a hard time for being white. I told him I had previously served there, enforcing sanctions against Ian Smith and to wind his neck in. I then decided the other bar was a better bet as I was hugely outnumbered and this particular bloke was massive! During my first visit, I was involved in a massive fight outside this bar. A group of about 9 or 10 white Rhodesians and South Africans had ridden their motorbikes into town, apparently bent on causing trouble. They looked in to the bar from the street door and saw there was three Brits in the bar, all a lot smaller than they. So they picked a fight. The 3 Brits were members of the South Wales Borderers and were not going to be cowed by either the numbers against them, nor the difference in size. However, some of us in the adjacent bar had seen what was going on and we all piled outside to help our 3 mates. Questions were asked in Parliament shortly afterwards, asking why British soldiers are going around a former colony, causing riots. There was no riot, just a very energetic and violent disagreement, involving perhaps 30 people. The local police turned out, saw what was going on and continued in their Land Rovers around the block for a couple of turns. The British Police Commissioner turned up and ordered the police to get stuck in. Unfortunately for him, he was laid out by one of my mates and the local police were not at all enthusiastic. At the end, all of the foreigners were in hospital for a brief visit, with the majority being hauled off to the local nick after a check up, with 3 or 4 others kept in hospital for some months. All received prison sentences. On our side, we all received a formal "tut tut, this will not do" lecture, followed by a smile and "well done though"! There were even informal, off the record words of thanks from the local authorities and even the Police Commissioner was totally forgiving, with no further mention of his brief, unplanned rest on the pavement.
Meanwhile, back in South Africa; my parents came out for a visit and my father who had served a couple of brief spells there during WW2, said he would like to see District 6 in Capetown. He was flabbergasted when I had to tell him I could show him the place from a distance but we couldn't visit as it was a "Non-Whites area" and we couldn't go there.
I changed my job to work in the South African Navy shore transmitter station, working 12 hour shifts. The shifts could become tedious as we had only to fix the transmitters if they broke, so I spent a lot of time using the station's excellent HF receiver listening to BBC, Radio Moscow and Deutsche Welle. I found that by listening to 3 different sources, I could get a fair picture of the events and politics in the country, rather than listen to the obvious tripe the SABC were feeding us. And it was a result of listening to outside sources that one day I said to myself "I can see which way this going" and decided to pull the pin and leave the country. We had already had the Soweto uprising, very much under reported in the S. African media and it was becoming obvious, listening to foreign media, the the unrest was spreading.
A couple of things about the place that stick in my mind today were; every non-white person had the same name, either "Boy" or "Blerry Kaffir" and the government was pretty much a hangover from the German Nazi Party of WW2.
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Old 26th May 2019, 18:59
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One aspect of present day ZAF is the cut-off age range of younger South Africans who have no real recollection of the bad old days, having been born either during the latter years or the transition years of the old regime.

A few years ago (about 4 - 5) I traveled up to Northern Mozambique with a couple of young, black, South African graduates to look at some machines which we had recently commissioned up there.
During that trip I discussed with them, over a few Laurentinas, their recollections of apartheid and how it had affected them.

The short answers were: a) not very many, and b) not very much.
To those guys, and they would be in their mid-30's now, apartheid was an historical period that had not played a significant part of their life.
They had simply been too young to register what it was all about.

Their age group and younger constitutes the significant majority of the population and they, as a rather small but reliable sample, were certainly not holding any ingrained grudges.
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Old 26th May 2019, 21:04
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Having arrived back here last night after a KLM flight made memorable by the humongous amount of personal attention the flight and cabin crew gave to passengers, I have been busy today sorting out the debris of decades in my little Craighall Park apartment, which I am selling due to the fact that spots seem to be fading away not so gently.
The local church seemed a likely place on which to offload items as divergent as old collar boxes and half used bottles of kitchen cleaner. The church was most receptive to the idea of any contribution even extending to receiving my collection of clean, if well worn, perfectly ordinary shop bought underwear. I thought this quite extraordinary but was told that the refugees that still stream into the City of Gold from further up the dark continent are so destitute that anything at all is better than what they don't have now.
There are camps full of totally destitute whites, camps full of impoverished blacks, the area is subject to blackouts, referred to in the local colloquial as 'power sharing', the crime rate makes London look positively bucolic, the streets are pot holed and dirty. Worst of all, my flat has been designated as a business interest in an effort by Johannesburg Council to obtain a short term financial fix, multiplied many times over by millions, before it has to restore residential rates to the place.
I went through three police road blocks on the way from Jan Smuts airport last night, between 22.00 and 22.30. All of the cars pulled over by the police were driven by blacks, all of the police were blacks and that, of course, is what you would expect in a black majority country. Tomorrow I am going to the local police station to hand in my Colt .45 and my Ruger 357 Magnum. I am glad to admit that I have only ever used them on ranges or against dangerous animals when riding a motor cycle. Still, hand guns are protective devices and when the bandits have heavy artillery anyway, perhaps it's best to be unarmed.
I would hazard a guess that the young black South African of today, while being able more easily to obtain a university degree of sorts now than during the apartheid days and perhaps also having a better prognosis for work today under the Black Economic Empowerment (BEE) regimes of the last twenty five years, would have to agree that it is the failure of successive governments since the demise of apartheid to change the lives of all South Africans for the better that will most impact on their later lives and those of their children in turn. It will not be the Dutchman or the British colonist of he past who is 'hated' so much as it will be some of the the six presidents of the republic since 1994. The magic of Mandela, whose reputation just might have exceeded his record, begins to fade. His successors have been less than glittering other than in their own acquisitions and incompetence as leaders.
We shall see how Ramaphosa does now. I think him a shrewd man. He is certainly a billionaire, one of the richest men on the continent by all accounts and Africa has its fair share of billionaires. I remember Cyril when he was more or less a shop steward agitator back in the late eighties. I hope for the sake of all of sub equatorial Africa that this man who has risen so very high himself in such a short time and accumulated the extensive rewards of so doing can turn his talents to enriching the whole of his country and thus the surrounding countries. Nonetheless, with no historical precedent anywhere in this great dark continent on which for him to draw, no past individual record of successes from which he could learn to improve upon the mistakes of the past, a healthy scepticism must prevail.
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Old 26th May 2019, 23:04
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My late father met both Bob Mugabe and Cyril Ramaphosa. He had a fear of one and a healthy respect for another.

I believe Me Ramaphosa is the best chance SA has. However he will be like King Canute trying to defy the tide. He will just delay the inevitable decay.
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