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Borris next PM?

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Borris next PM?

Old 6th Jul 2019, 15:08
  #921 (permalink)  
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Me three. And funnily enough most of my pro-Brexit friends feel the same...
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Old 6th Jul 2019, 15:11
  #922 (permalink)  
 
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+1 here too..
I voted leave because I didnt want to become part of a US of Europe, run by unelected bureaucrats...
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Old 6th Jul 2019, 15:24
  #923 (permalink)  
 
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OK shut the front door.

This doesnít fit the Guardian narrative at all.

Please, KnC, give us a link to assure us the public havenít been lied to.

BV
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Old 6th Jul 2019, 17:07
  #924 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by pr00ne View Post
Oh dear Andrewn,

Yes, the economy is booming, we have as good as full employment, things are indeed rosey, but that's because we have BEEN IN THE EU for 45 YEARS!!!!!!!!!!!!
Oh dear pr00ne,

Seeing as the EU has only been in existence for slightly less than 26 years, how do you work out that we have been in it for 45 years?
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Old 6th Jul 2019, 17:45
  #925 (permalink)  
 
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If the EU had stayed as the EEC, without morphing into the federal organisation that seems to barely pay lip service to democracy, then I would not have voted to leave.

Sadly the EEC followed Tony Benn's predictions way back when we had the first referendum to remain in the EEC. He was remarkably prescient, and although I don't agree with all of his views, I commend him for trying to warn us all back then of what would happen. The unelected European Commission is simply far too unaccountable, and has far too much delegated authority, in my view.

I detest BJ with a passion, but if he survives long enough to get us out and clear of the EU then I will tolerate him as a short term PM. It seems clear that he won't survive long, probably not much longer than needed to get us past the October deadline, which then leaves us in a pretty grim position as to who might replace him, if there should be, as I suspect there may be, a vote of no confidence.

Looks like we have at least another year of political turmoil. We can only hope that once we've left the EU our politics may regain some sense of normality, although I don't hold out much hope.
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Old 6th Jul 2019, 18:45
  #926 (permalink)  
 
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OMG, all these sensible, non-rabid Brexiteers, we cant have that. Let me reassure KnC, Gertie and ATN that I most definitely AM a Brexit at all costs type

I voted Leave largely because I was sick and tired of the status quo, it left me cold, it appeared to me as though "the system" was rigged against the small guy with too much wealth and power in the hands of what I'd loosely call the establishment. I could go into more detail on the whys and wherefores of that thought process but it would probably be very dull, unless you happen to think the way I do, so suffice to say I saw the Brexit vote as an opportunity to really shake things up and maybe hit the reset button on quite a few things that I personally wasn't very happy with.

In a sado-masochistic way I've quite enjoyed the political chaos that has ensued, from the humiliation of hoodie loving Cameron right through to the rapid degeneration of the Maybot, whom went from being a potential Iron Lady mk2 ("Yes I'd nuke anyone without hesitation") to a gibbering wreck that ended up being unable to utter a coherent sentence without the benefit of an autocue.

Of course the jury is still out on the actual impacts of Brexit (it has to be as we havent left yet!), but I think we can all take comfort (no matter how mad we are) from the durability of those institutions meant to safeguard us in circumstances such as we are seeing now.

Over and out from Brexit Central/
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Old 6th Jul 2019, 19:23
  #927 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by ATNotts View Post
I totally understand your position; you are a died in the wood Leaver and cannot possibly see any downsides to our leaving the EU. Sure the UK will "survive" a no deal Brexit; these islands aren't going to be annihilated because we've jumped off an economic and political cliff edge, but do we, as a nation want to merely "survive"? Both candidates for PM have accepted that the UK will take a big hit were we to leave with no deal, which given the fact that when it comes down to it in general elections it's usually two things that sway voters - the economy and their job security; and inevitably "our NHS". If the economy is in a poor state come the election, in 2022, then the new PM's government is toast, if the NHS is continuing to fail people, as it is to some extent now, then their government is in peril; if there's a double whammy the Tory party will probably lose out on power for a generation.
Ifs, whats and maybe's - the usual backstops (no pun intended) for all Remainer arguments. As you point out the the NHS is on its knees now, and I've no more idea than you whether Brexit will makes things better, worse or the same. As for the Tories being out of power for a generation well you reap what you sow...

Originally Posted by ATNotts View Post
All that assumes that the new PM get's beyond the end of this year without an election. Phil Hammond has already committed to stop a no deal Brexit, as have tens of other Tories. Unless the new PM takes all shades of Brexit opinion into consideration, as incidentally May tried valiantly to do, their reign could be exceedingly short.
Oh yeah, I remember valiant Theresa "Brexit means Brexit" and "No Deal is better than a bad deal" - that the one you mean? The one that bought all this chaos on herself by reneging on her decision not to call a snap GE and then proceeded to head up the worst campaign since Michael Foot? If it wasnt for her consistent ineptitude, backtracking and appaling lack of communication skills we'd have left by now!!
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Old 7th Jul 2019, 08:12
  #928 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by ATSA1 View Post
+1 here too..
I voted leave because I didnt want to become part of a US of Europe, run by unelected bureaucrats...
As has been mentioned "once or twice "...cough !...for those who have an intrinsic belief in urban myths, this one is very enduring, So much so, it is now well established as fact......merrily ignoring it's been mooted for many years and has yet to materialise ......and never will.

BV...." This doesnít fit the Guardian narrative at all.

Please, KnC, give us a link to assure us the public havenít been lied to
.

I will be delighted to provide the relevant headlines and facts from the Guardian regarding your proposition the public haven't been lied to when they are printed in the not too distant future....and the lies become glaringly evident as the insidious detriment to the UK gathers momentum.

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Old 7th Jul 2019, 08:26
  #929 (permalink)  
 
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KnC

You know I donít have a problem with you and, if Iím honest, I enjoy the differing viewpoints even if I donít agree with them.

Do you ever read your own posts though and wonder if maybe you are not a little single minded? Maybe a little entrenched in your views and blinkered even? I mean, nobody can be right all the time can they?

As an example, you dismiss the urban myth of the federalised Europe saying it will never happen. How can you prove that if it hasnít happened yet? It is as much a real fear and possible outcome as Britain being stronger post Brexit.

You see, the trouble is you canít prove the things you agree with any more than you can prove the things you disagree with. All you have is an opinion, the same as the rest of us.

One day you may be proven right. Or you may be proven wrong. None of us will know which until that day actually arrives.

BV
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Old 7th Jul 2019, 08:43
  #930 (permalink)  
 
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Sadly we won't actually know because we can't model the three possible scenarios, only one will come through. To continue the SM theme I kind of feel bad that the NoDeal option clearly isn't going to happen because there isn't enough support to let it. Wiser heads will prevail to stop it. And while Grieve,Lee et al will most likely space the country we won't be able to point to the disaster and say "We told you so"
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Old 7th Jul 2019, 08:48
  #931 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Bob Viking View Post
You know I donít have a problem with you and, if Iím honest, I enjoy the differing viewpoints even if I donít agree with them.

Do you ever read your own posts though and wonder if maybe you are not a little single minded? Maybe a little entrenched in your views and blinkered even? I mean, nobody can be right all the time can they?

As an example, you dismiss the urban myth of the federalised Europe saying it will never happen. How can you prove that if it hasnít happened yet? It is as much a real fear and possible outcome as Britain being stronger post Brexit.

You see, the trouble is you canít prove the things you agree with any more than you can prove the things you disagree with. All you have is an opinion, the same as the rest of us.

One day you may be proven right. Or you may be proven wrong. None of us will know which until that day actually arrives.

BV
That's a backhanded compliment I suppose...

Am I single minded ?....not really, very pragmatic in fact in comparison to many on here....however, with regard to my bold above and your query underlined.

In all fairness that is surely blatantly obvious because, unless I've missed it ( as a Guardian headline, obviously ! ) non of the EU states have relinquished their sovereignty and remain as independent nations within the EU. As for who will set the precedent, again, the question has been posed.....and, strangely, no answer albeit Andy S did once make an effort to respond.

Just out of interest, have you ceased cavorting around the skies of Cardigan Bay, waving to the spotters on the Mach loop ( never did that, but enjoyed a back seat in a Gnat down the A5 ) along with "yaddah yaddah yaddah " at Mona ?

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Old 7th Jul 2019, 09:04
  #932 (permalink)  
 
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KnC

Check PMs.

BV
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Old 7th Jul 2019, 11:00
  #933 (permalink)  
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For those staunch supporters of "no deal ", and Boris, and indeed any others offering the same tantalising glimpse of their Nirvana ( UK ), here's a bit about logistics......oh, and some more tax payer expenditure as well.....always helps to have a source that's reliable after all.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-48875402
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Old 7th Jul 2019, 11:05
  #934 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Krystal n chips View Post
As has been mentioned "once or twice "...cough !...for those who have an intrinsic belief in urban myths, this one is very enduring, So much so, it is now well established as fact.......
Mentioned once "once or twice" by none other than yourself. You are referencing yourself in support of your own views......... Makes a change from The Guardian I suppose.

As for a Federal Europe, no, we're not there yet. But you conveniently ignore a couple of things. Firstly, the direction of travel, which is clearly and remorselessly in one direction. You will of course claim that a Federal Europe can never exist because no nation state will ever vote for such a thing. But it's happening regardless, which brings me onto the second thing you overlook - the underhand, Machiavellian way in which the institutions of a nation state are gradually being put into place without any sort of democratic legitimacy. Remember the European Constitution? The one that was rejected by the voters of France and The Netherlands, but which subsequently slipped in through the back door as the Lisbon Treaty? (Didn't Gordon Brown literally slip through the back door to sign it?). And how about the creation of the Euro? In which German citizens were persuaded to give up the Mark by assurances that participation in the Euro by member states would be subject to strict criteria. A process that the authorities never had the slightest intention of enforcing.

Perhaps you could explain why an organisation with no ambitions towards statehood has a flag, an anthem, a parliament (two parliaments.....), a constitution. a standardised passport, a legally defined citizenship, a foreign policy arm, a common currency, plans for a common defence capability (something we were assured just a few years ago was absolutely not planned). Do NAFTA or MERCOSUR have these things?

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Old 7th Jul 2019, 11:46
  #935 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Krystal n chips View Post
For those staunch supporters of "no deal ", and Boris, and indeed any others offering the same tantalising glimpse of their Nirvana ( UK ), here's a bit about logistics......oh, and some more tax payer expenditure as well.....always helps to have a source that's reliable after all.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-48875402
Ah yes. The Brussels Broadcasting Corporation. Home of Project Fear.



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Old 7th Jul 2019, 13:09
  #936 (permalink)  
 
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The BBC, can anyone take their politically leftist biased views seriously.
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Old 7th Jul 2019, 13:18
  #937 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Krystal n chips View Post
For those staunch supporters of "no deal ", and Boris, and indeed any others offering the same tantalising glimpse of their Nirvana ( UK ), here's a bit about logistics......
So we're planning for 'No Deal'.

Why is that a problem? I would have thought it was the sensible thing to do.
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Old 7th Jul 2019, 14:20
  #938 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Andy_S View Post
My Brexit position is a little bit more complex than that.

I'm actually a reluctant leaver. I'm certainly not an ideological Brexiteer. I agonised over my choice till the day of the referendum not least because I am aware of the economic benefits of EU membership - so yes, I do see the downsides. But this is about more than economics. This is also about the direction of travel of the EU and the rather duplicitous and underhand way we have been set on this course without any kind of democratic mandate. I swear to you that if the EU abandoned it's march towards federalism and concentrated on being a very effective trade zone then I would want back in tomorrow. But I've lost any confidence that this is possible.

It wouldn't surprise me if we take an economic hit. But what really bugs me is the attitude amongst many hardcore remainers that we will suffer a complete economic collapse as a result of Brexit and end up in some sort of Mad Max style dystopia. We will survive Brexit for the very reasons you suggested. And if we can offer a business friendly economic environment post-Brexit then we could even thrive.
I am actually a reluctant remainer. I think that the ardent remainers here and in the HoC who claim the 'support' of the could not be bothered voters totally ignore the many reluctant remainers.

They claim a second referendum will sort things out. They might be surprised if the indifferent increase their indifference (out of boredom) and the reluctant remainers support democracy and support leave just to resolve the impass.
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Old 7th Jul 2019, 16:12
  #939 (permalink)  
 
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There is absolutely no point in a second referendum, because it is no more likely to produce a clear majority either way than the last one.
We just have to go with it and make the best of the very poor hand that Brexit has dealt. The United Kingdom will be consigned to history.
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Old 7th Jul 2019, 18:09
  #940 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Sallyann1234
The United Kingdom will be consigned to history.
A few Scots will bleat about being taken out of the eu

Next day, sun still rises in the East.

Historic as our leaving will be, not a lot will happen other than a load of whining that the remoaners didn't frustrate/obfuscate/pontificate/masturbate enough to prevent it.
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