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Travel documentation to the EU after Brexit

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Travel documentation to the EU after Brexit

Old 2nd Apr 2019, 17:38
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Travel documentation to the EU after Brexit

This thread is started with the intention of receiving helpful information rather than to express political and personal opinions ......

Going through Basel airport this afternoon and experiencing the now-usual delays between the aircraft and passport control (even when coming from a Schengen country - today from mainland Spain (SCQ)), I saw a sign reminding me to show either a passport or an ID document and proof of residency.

If I understand it correctly - and I am by no means sure that I do - it is proposed that UK passport holders can only visit EU countries for 90 days in every 180.... and I suppose that will mean date stamping a passport on arrival at and maybe also on depart from an EU airport. I have to make reasonably frequent trips to the UK, but live in France, so how can I avoid being considered a 'visitor' on my return home .... will presenting my Carte de Séjour before my passport help? Or what should I do to avoid being counted 'in and out' as a visitor? I am sure that I'm not the only person in this situation ... and even a nice lady from the Police des Frontières was unable to answer this!

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Old 2nd Apr 2019, 17:53
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Originally Posted by Alsacienne View Post
... I ... live in France ...
Why don't you have a French passport?

To me it seems to be the decent thing to do if you live in a country to become a citizen of that country. I'm not preaching to others, I've done it myself.
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Old 2nd Apr 2019, 18:26
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Have those times been promulgated? Long before Schengen and the EU was thought of I was waived out of Yugoslavia and next showed my passport before boarding a Sea Link Ferry. There was a border post out of Austria but we weren't checked.
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Old 2nd Apr 2019, 19:14
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This thread is started with the intention of receiving helpful information rather than to express political and personal opinions ......
And that is still my wish.

Noel, you asked me
Why don't you have a French passport? To me it seems to be the decent thing to do if you live in a country to become a citizen of that country. I'm not preaching to others, I've done it myself.
Oh believe me I have investigated this thoroughly, but the documentation it requires is often impossible to get from the UK, and all documents have to be translated and have only a months' validity as translated documents before submission and as you have to submit everything together not all documents can be produced and translated within the required time frame which means you have to start all over again and .... well, have you ever tried herding cats?! I agree with your opinion as to the decency of your argument, however sometimes the country of residence makes it impossible or almost to achieve. It was hard enough to get my Red Rose passport revalidated, and that, as you know as a White Rose resident, comes at an unexpected price!

Pontius, I too remember when you didn't have to show passports - passing through Luxembourg and Belgium come to mind - but with the current Brexit issues under the spotlight, nobody seems to have any plan for when any restrictions would come into force (eg duty free allowances, IDPs, Green Cards for motorists, contents of first aid kits, lightbulbs, breathalysers etc .... I might be mistaken but either the time frame would be once we leave the EU (fairly soon) or after the transition period ends ... but I wonder if the 'official say so' would come from the different EU nations rather than the UK.
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Old 2nd Apr 2019, 19:59
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Originally Posted by NoelEvans View Post
Why don't you have a French passport?

To me it seems to be the decent thing to do if you live in a country to become a citizen of that country. I'm not preaching to others, I've done it myself.
My ten pence worth would be that is a fair point but looking at it another way do you think the French working and living in the U.K. rush to take British citizenship? The answer is probably no and the reason is that until the Brexit debacle there was simply no need to consider switching citizenship, that was one of the joys of the E.U...but now here we are! Even now most of the EU nationals I work with in the UK aren’t considering changing to British citizenship...they are concentrating on getting some form of recognised immigration status.

FWIW we have looked at French citizenship within the family, conclusion was if I changed I could actually cause myself complications from an employment POV so I haven’t switched but myself and my better half I have successfully gone through the process to gain Carte/Titre de Sejour (residency permit), so hopefully, as Alsacienne has mentioned, that card gets around any Visa problems ..but we are yet to know the details of what will happen at Ports of entry/exit.

OTOH my offspring, who see their futures outside the UK, have gone through the mill and taken French citizenship. They are very much the product of almost two decades of the French education system but even so they found the process non-trivial and somewhat daunting...Alsacienne is right, it is like herding cats...big cats...with attitude..

On the subject of nationality and Brexit I do remember extended family saying just after the referendum that they assumed we “had taken French nationality”, as if it was something that got handed out like sweets for good attendance...The idea that as Brits we couldn’t walk into an office in France and demand (no doubt in a loud voice, in English) French nationality completely escaped them and they were horrified when they found out the reality (think herding cats again)....we think we know which way they voted in ‘16

Last edited by wiggy; 2nd Apr 2019 at 20:45.
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Old 2nd Apr 2019, 20:24
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Originally Posted by Alsacienne View Post
. . . any plan for when any restrictions would come into force (eg duty free allowances, IDPs, Green Cards for motorists, contents of first aid kits, lightbulbs, breathalysers etc .....
No change here as these are national requirements that apply now. Don't forget yellow vests and spare glasses if you need glasses for driving. Also winter tyres and chains may also be required.

On my recent trips (couple of years ago) from Hull you could buy what you need on the ferry.
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Old 2nd Apr 2019, 21:12
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On my recent trips (couple of years ago) from Hull you could buy what you need on the ferry.
... and ditto between Dover and Calais, BUT ... not all the kit is necessary now ... and at prices to make your eyes water!!!
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Old 2nd Apr 2019, 21:32
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I don't know any specifics but certainly US people visiting and temporarily working in the UK under a visa are restricted. Presume the same for all nationalities if we leave the free market. If we ( the UK) had adjusted access to welfare benefits and the NHS to align with market freedoms we may not have found ourselves in the position we are in. However, for tourism (other than health), is there an issue? A bit of paperwork, so what?
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Old 2nd Apr 2019, 21:36
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The practicalities (avoiding any political aspect) are that ONCE (or if) Brexit occurs, then the EU authorities in whatever Country us Brits travel to, MAY take it upon themselves to make life awkward - or not.
As a UK resident who voted for joining the Common Market (but NOT the tentacles that insidiously bound us by law etc) and with property in Spain I COULD have voted to Remain.
Continental driving has always been a bit of a pitfall for UK drivers.
What with GB stickers, beam deflectors, first aid kits, spare bulbs for ALL lights, warning triangles, orange hi viz (yellow not acceptable in some Countries) Crit'Air sticker, breathalysers, toll tags and the like, your car has kilos of kit that makes you furious when you see the number of cars driving around with lights not working, broken covers and belching fumes. Add to that the number of Brits in Spain at least using GB registered cars with no MOT etc and you get cynical.
Driving from Calais to southern Spain rams home just how crowded the UK is, when you can travel on empty motorways with scarcely another car in sight. We can only use cruise control in the EU, and often it is simply clicking up or down a kph or 2 so overtaking cars can pass before reaching a vehicle ahead.
Then glorious Spain who embrace the principle of EU funding with open arms.and where you find 3 or 4 lane motorways right from the French border right into hilltop tiny villages; then parallel with the free motorways are 3 or 4 lane toll roads (mow bankrupt as the Spanish won't spend if they get it for free) AND high speed train lines, making driving superfluous!!

Billions spent of UK funding........ and we're still bumbling about, the Channel Tunnel should have been extended to under the Thames, Humber and all points north right into Scotland using EU funding. Same for the Heathrow or Gatwick runway, and a motorway link to Lands End, so that we get out of the EU what we put in.
However, rather than do their duty and represent the views/wishes of their constituencies, our MP's pontificate their own ideas, resulting in firstly the PM being unable to have the EU preferred Deal approved; then Parliament taking it over with no better result. Perhaps the best thing would be for the Houses of \parliament to be set afire, with every MP inside, to see if any could find an exit, and save billions in repair costs at the same time.

That's where we went wrong, we didn't play the EU at their own game, delusions of grandeur that we still had the mantle of Empire, playing policeman on a world stage when we're a minor bit player really, as we put everything in to save France from Germany twice in 100 years, now they're the biggest collaborators against us and are ensuring that Brexit terms are so punitive that no other Member will think of leaving.

Personally, I'd be happy to Leave on 12th April IF the UK then had the balls to tell the EU "No More Money" with immediate effect.
What I don't want is for the UK to continue to pay whilst being unable to do anything.

If that looms, then I'd suggest that we stay for one more EU Parliamentary term, strictly on the basis that this is the Last Chance to get a Deal that doesn't tear the UK apart over Northern Ireland border. But that's just my view................. Next
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Old 2nd Apr 2019, 22:09
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For the moment we seem to be governed by the ex-head girl of a second rate provincial grammar school. Vision and moral courage are in short supply. However, in terms of travel inconveniences don't see much trouble. Did I misunderstand the OP?
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Old 2nd Apr 2019, 22:15
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Did I misunderstand the OP?
Possibly not, but if you hold a UK passport, live full-time in the UK and only travel to 'Europe' infrequently it probably won't be a big deal once you've bought any new travel documents, paid for travel and health insurance etc.

But for those of us who are of British nationality but have full-time residence in a country currently classified as being in the EU, with jobs, houses and families, and have been there for some time, it just seemed a bit of a problem to turn the 'travel' and 'place of residence' thinking upside down because not all Brits live in the United Kingdom ...

It all may come to nothing .... but I'm not as optimistic as you might be given your avatar - though I would truly like to be!
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Old 2nd Apr 2019, 22:35
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Well the avatar is ironic. Hmm, if you are just retired and not seeking employment then access to health would be a worry but if you are just contributing to the local economy hopefully not much else. I have been surprised by the disparity in attitude between the UK and eg Spain: not sure the UK would be so tolerant of enclaves of foreign speaking outsiders. There is also the possibility of nationalistic backlash: Gibraltar and Northern Ireland come to mind. Don't know but maybe it does show that this ' European Project' is built on falsity if national feelings become so readily apparent.
If I decided to make my home in another country I hope I would take their nationality and learn their Language ( well attempt to), and not hedge my bets in case I needed to resort to the home country NHS.

However, the current shenanigans are certainly not favourable to peace of mind and I wish you luck but I suspect it is all rather more sound than fury and a middle course will be found.
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Old 3rd Apr 2019, 00:30
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While I lived in Germany my (British) children had to carry a Residence Permit (Aufenthaltserlaubnis) with them, in spite of EU regulations and the fact their mother is German, when the decided to apply for German nationality they had to provide their German grandparents marriage certificate and every marriage and birth certificate since then. This was a major undertaking as at least one of the certificates was issued in a place that was Germany but is now Poland.
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Old 3rd Apr 2019, 11:35
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Just my two cents, but your question was 'how can I avoid being considered a visitor in France'. I guess you tackled that when you arranged for a Carte de Séjour, but it is up to France to figure out how to treat you after Brexit. Not being familiar with such a Carte, does it expire in any way or is it a (semi-)permanent status? For now all you can do is read up on the small print in this regard, as any attitude change by France towards card-holders like yourself will be dependent on the deal that the UK strikes with the EU (if they get to that point). And we promised not to get into that swamp....
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Old 3rd Apr 2019, 12:14
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The actual CdS is valid 10 years..

ATM I don’t think we know what the renewal process will involve (the Carte may even need to reissued in a slightly different form post Brexit, so some prefectures have actually frozen the process until matters are clarified by French central government).

As for the whole thing being a swamp, Yep, it is, and as the nice lady at the local prefecture said as she handed over your cards..”it’s a nightmare for you Brits, good luck”


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Old 3rd Apr 2019, 13:11
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Many years ago I needed to rely on stamps in a passport as evidence of time spent in the UK.
The lesson learnt is to also keep a log with documentary evidence of your movements as a backup.

Mjb
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Old 3rd Apr 2019, 13:22
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To interject some facts. (My source is the British Ambassador to Belgium at a meeting for UK residents in Belgium.)

After any change in the rules a UK national with permanent residency in a Schengen state will need to produce the residency card of the state they live in AND their UK passport to cross a Schengen border. The residency card replaces the Schegen entry/exit stamp (or any visa stamp) that the Schegen resident will not be able to get in their UK passport. The instructions covering this procedure will be (or possibly have been) circulated to everybody that needs to know.
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Old 3rd Apr 2019, 14:13
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Thanks ukc-mike. I thought that this might be the case .... and have mentioned this to others in the local ex-pat community. The expected wail went up ... "but won't my driving licence do as it shows my address in France" ... but I'm sure that it will need to be a Carte de Séjour or equivalent from any other EU Schengen country. However ....
The instructions covering this procedure will be (or possibly have been) circulated to everybody that needs to know.
nobody has mentioned anything to the Police des Frontières at Basel ... yet!
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Old 3rd Apr 2019, 15:12
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The advice in Nordicland is that in the event of a no deal, get a resident stamp in your passport before venturing overseas. I don’t get why as we have ID cards that prove residence anyway. I guess the reason is simply no one knows what is happening or what they are doing until it’s done and dusted? More of concern is that UK have promised continued right to exist in UK WHATEVER the outcome. The EU have so far bluntly refused to reciprocate! We are just pawns in their game. Keep paying your taxes and we’ll toss you aside when it fits! Shocking!
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Old 3rd Apr 2019, 15:16
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Originally Posted by Kelly Hopper View Post
<snip>
More of concern is that UK have promised continued right to exist in UK WHATEVER the outcome. The EU have so far bluntly refused to reciprocate! We are just pawns in their game. Keep paying your taxes and we’ll toss you aside when it fits! Shocking!
Will you care to provide a source for this lie / fake news?
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