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BREXIT

Old 24th Mar 2019, 21:35
  #161 (permalink)  
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Pax

So why no second referendum , parliament cannot decide so ask the people again , democracy is all about being able to change your mind as David Davis said back in 2012.
I think the reasons have been expounded in JB ad nauseam with what options to pose and the time in which to hold it. What to do if there is a similar narrow margin?

Even a GE is no answer as a GE determines which party forms a Government and not which Government will revoke Art 50 or press on.

As they say, we are where we are. Parliament was charged with carrying out the will of the people and should sort out the mess. A PM, prepared to negotiate with the EU is needed.

Kicking the can down the road for days, weeks, months, even years will only achieve uncertainty.

Well maybe not years, 2nd 'meaningful' referendum in two years. Remain - we carry on as before. Leave - we leave asap, no Art 50 two year non sense.
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Old 24th Mar 2019, 23:52
  #162 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Sallyann1234 View Post
It's nationalist stupidity like that, that got us into the shit we are in now.
It is also to a degree the attitude and national pride that got the white flag wavers of Europe out of the shit as you put it twice in less than a hundred years
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Old 25th Mar 2019, 02:31
  #163 (permalink)  
 
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SallyAnn et al

If you truly believe that the ranks of the Brexiteers are full of such people then I might counter by saying itís the condascending, supercilious attitude of some that got us to where we are now.

As a further aside I feel like mentioning how all of us (despite any claims of righteousness) voted for personal and selfish reasons. Which is absolutely correct.

A guy I knew at work spent weeks preaching about how Brexit is terrible etc and a vote to Remain was for the greater good. He didnít initially mention that his retirement plans involved moving to France and he was therefore very personally invested in the whole freedom of movement element of the EU.

Sallyann. Do you reside in Germany or are you just visiting?

BV
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Old 25th Mar 2019, 07:25
  #164 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Bob Viking View Post


A guy I knew at work spent weeks preaching about how Brexit is terrible etc and a vote to Remain was for the greater good. He didnít initially mention that his retirement plans involved moving to France and he was therefore very personally invested in the whole freedom of movement element of the EU.
And??

If his retirement plans were well advanced he was hopefully better clued up than many in the UK on the realities of FoM and passport control into/out off the UK, the euro, wether bendy Bananas were really banned from French supermarkets etc..In fact I hope he was seen as valuable resource in whatever arena discussions took place to balance some of the nonsense in the UK MSM...I'd certainly hope the information he came up with and his opinions weren't discounted just on the basis of his retirement plans.
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Old 25th Mar 2019, 08:27
  #165 (permalink)  
 
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Exrigger

In my opinion, based on chatting with my circle of friends, colleagues and family, the option to exit under WTO rules will get more votes than accept a deal and together will attract more votes than the remain option, so that will not be the chosen version.
Given that you reside in / near Lincoln that's hardly surprising. Add to that, generally we live in a echo-chamber environment where our friends tend to be the same age group and hold largely the same opinions. That is statistically proven, added to which there is a tendency for the more submissive members of a circle to coalesce behind the views of the stronger members - so what they say to you may be nuanced and exactly what they really think.

That's true of your friends, my friends - everybody's friends.
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Old 25th Mar 2019, 08:52
  #166 (permalink)  
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Wiggy, did you miss the word immediately?

It may be true that he was well informed but as BV frequently reminds us. Confirmation bias.

A person, having decided on a course of action as being the best for him is unlikely to admit that their view is skewed and wrong. Not declaring their true position at the outset is likely to skew one's views of their argument when you discover their real interests. It is for that reason that Members are required to publish detailed under on their interests and public servants declare hospitality received. The latter also applies in many professions too.
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Old 25th Mar 2019, 08:56
  #167 (permalink)  
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so what they say to you may be nuanced and exactly the opposite of what they really think.

That's true of your friends, my friends - everybody's friends.
To a point, but I have certainly experienced in my club and my family opposite views and never the scorn and insults seen here.
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Old 25th Mar 2019, 09:12
  #168 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Pontius Navigator View Post
To a point, but I have certainly experienced in my club and my family opposite views and never the scorn and insults seen here.
Similar for me, my family (say) they are all remainers, my mother is a convert to remain from leave. Most of my friends (say) the a remainers but I have one friend who is an ardent, flag displaying, brexiteer. We tend not to get too involved in discussion on Brexit as friendship is at the end of the day more important.
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Old 25th Mar 2019, 10:00
  #169 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Bob Viking View Post
Sallyann. Do you reside in Germany or are you just visiting?
Neither is required to be using a German IP address.
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Old 25th Mar 2019, 10:23
  #170 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Pontius Navigator View Post
Wiggy, did you miss the word immediately?

It may be true that he was well informed but as BV frequently reminds us. Confirmation bias.
No I didn't miss immediately and I'm not sure that changes the underlying point...but in the spirit of declaring an interest at this stage I'd better declare immediately that I live In France. Also I'll declare I'm an UK ex-mil aviator/instructor (I think BV is possibly too young to have been "one of mine"?) and for quite some time now an aviator in the civil world (British company) so I do have a vague grasp of what confirmation bias means but thanks all for the repeated reminders...


I'd agree there's certainly room for confirmation bias if our semi-fictious retiree simply went around saying as a simple opinion "FoM good, Brexit bad" . OTOH would you dismiss as say, confirmation bias if our now famous semi-fictious retiree came back from time in France and said:

" Despite what the Mail is saying about trade restrictions I was able to buy New Zealand lamb and some bent bananas at the weekend in LeClerc in Calais/Paris/ Bordeaux/ pretty much any other large French town"?

You can't simply yell "confirmation bias" every time you want a fast counter to a "Remain" POV, or observation...but I guess "project fear" is a bit worn out by now

(For the avoidance of any doubt - you yes can buy all that stuff in Aldi/LeClerc/Lidl etc).

Last edited by wiggy; 25th Mar 2019 at 10:37.
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Old 25th Mar 2019, 11:03
  #171 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by ATNotts View Post
... but I have one friend who is an ardent, flag displaying, brexiteer. We tend not to get too involved in discussion on Brexit as friendship is at the end of the day more important.
What a nice comment. It would be so nice if a few more on here thought that way.
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Old 25th Mar 2019, 11:14
  #172 (permalink)  
 
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I read this in my morning paper today and thought it to be very witty, one of the British Brexit protesters held a placard that read

"Ikea has better cabinets"
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Old 25th Mar 2019, 11:26
  #173 (permalink)  
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Wiggy, my point really hinged on the failure to declare an
​​​​interest at the outset. The rest of your point is valid. Mine is one of distrust of someone that does not declare their interest. As you say hypothetical, what we don't know is how long out was before his interest was declared.
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Old 25th Mar 2019, 12:53
  #174 (permalink)  
 
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[color=left=#000000]So why no second referendum , parliament cannot decide so ask the people again , democracy is all about being able to change your mind as David Davis said back in 2012. [/color]
And just as likely to have democratically changed his mind several times since 2012 to what he now thinks is good for him, so that is no excuse.
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Old 25th Mar 2019, 14:02
  #175 (permalink)  
 
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Could some of those who favour Brexit tell us exactly what aspects of Britain's EU membership have affected them personally in an adverse way.
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Old 25th Mar 2019, 14:35
  #176 (permalink)  
 
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Buster

They take £350M a week of our hard earned money that could be better spent on the NHS...

Iím sorry. I couldnít resist.

BV
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Old 25th Mar 2019, 14:46
  #177 (permalink)  
 
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Three minutes of laughter or tears
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Old 25th Mar 2019, 14:58
  #178 (permalink)  
 
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Buster11 I think having the EU to blame for anything that wasn't liked by the British public has resulted in our politicians becoming the most incapable shower for generations.
The lack of honesty by every British Prime Minister since Harold Wilson about the intended ever closer political union first proposed by Jean Monnet and Arthur Salter in the 1920's has ended my trust in our so-called leaders which ahs been compounded by out current PM making a fiasco of the leave process.
The major lack of understanding by most people of how far the EU has intruded into our law and how, currently, British Law is legally subservient to EU Law. Your average Remain voter also has, in my experience, a very poor understanding of how the ECB can over-rule any European Central Bank and potentially demand funds from the 28 countries to cover the TARGET2 liabilities.

So to finally answer your question, no direct adverse impact apart from not being able to fly EASA aircraft on my old-school CAA licence but I do think the move of "competencies" to the EU from national establishments like the CAA reduces the country's overall abilities to manage itself.

Sallyanne that clip was excellent and shows that every Government needs a scapegoat and the EU was ours and apparently we were the Eu and the remaining 27's!
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Old 25th Mar 2019, 15:24
  #179 (permalink)  
 
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Could some of those who favour Brexit tell us exactly what aspects of Britain's EU membership have affected them personally in an adverse way.
A small example, compounded many times over by unnecessary regulation forced on us - I have to pay 5 times as much to buy an altimeter that is less accurate and reliable than the one it replaces (but it does come with an offical EASA approved piece of paper).
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Old 25th Mar 2019, 17:00
  #180 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Buster11 View Post
Could some of those who favour Brexit tell us exactly what aspects of Britain's EU membership have affected them personally in an adverse way.
As BV said earlier, selfish reasons. One way is take our money and then giving EU grants for regional projects. In practice we might get something that central Government would not fund. GTW might be able to give examples.

And if that £350m, if people had thought about it, the EU Parliament and MEP a and EU bureaucracy are an extra burden on top of our national Parliament. There will also be a UK layer of civil servants designed to interface with the EU. Whether they will expand or reduce post Brexit I don't know.

Now as it happens I was chatting with a neighbour who is not going to France this year. He then said many of his French friends want Exitfr.



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