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BREXIT

Old 28th Aug 2019, 20:21
  #1701 (permalink)  
 
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Ah, the calibre of the debate. You misjudged but can't accept it.
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Old 28th Aug 2019, 21:31
  #1702 (permalink)  
 
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Racist? Ill informed? Not of the calibre? Misjudge?.... Do not have the temerity to tell me how I voted and where I went wrong, you sir are a fool.

My dear chap, you are so wide of the mark, yes I voted leave and fervently believe we will be a better country freed from the onerous burden of the EU.
True there may be a period of turmoil, but I firmly believe in this Country, that it is stronger than this and will grow from it.

BUT what really grips me is every remainer, every opposition MP, keep shouting Democracy.... Democracy.... Democracy......
while ignoring the ONE democratic vote we have had on the subject and choose to ignore it. And now we have these same people decrying a no deal exit while seemingly both deaf and blind to the obvious fact the vote was to leave period and in no way, shape or form was any method of achieving that result mentioned.
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Old 28th Aug 2019, 21:38
  #1703 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Islandlad View Post
ill informed then

Next?
No, just a best guess based on personal experience.
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Old 28th Aug 2019, 21:46
  #1704 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by NutLoose View Post


BUT what really grips me is every remainer, every opposition MP, keep shouting Democracy.... Democracy.... Democracy......
while ignoring the ONE democratic vote we have had on the subject and choose to ignore it.



Just to be clear...by that "ONE democratic vote" do you mean the advisory referendum that was so tainted by allegations of interference that it would have been subject to legal scrutiny and possibly legal sanction if it hadn't been deemed advisory...funny how that happened.

Look... I get that because of the idiot Cameron you "won" and we are stuck with the result, but don't pretend it was a democratic process, don't pretend that the majority of the UK population voted for Brexit, to use Boris's word, by " a massive majority" and above all don't expect people to shut up...the "Blitz spirit" , "never surrender" and all that cuts both ways in a true democracy..
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Old 28th Aug 2019, 21:54
  #1705 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by wiggy View Post

Just to be clear...by that "ONE democratic vote" do you mean the advisory referendum that was so tainted by allegations of interference that it would have been subject to legal scrutiny and possibly legal sanction if it hadn't been deemed advisory...funny how that happened.

Look... I get that because of the idiot Cameron you "won" and we are stuck with the result, but don't pretend it was a democratic process, don't pretend that the majority of the UK population voted for Brexit, to use Boris's word, by " a massive majority" and above all don't expect people to shut up...the "Blitz spirit" , "never surrender" and all that cuts both ways in a true democracy..
Was the judgement that the referendum was "advisory" not only made some 4-5 months after the referendum was held?

Was the import of that judgement not of the vein that "Here's what we want you to do. We don't care how you do it."
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Old 28th Aug 2019, 22:25
  #1706 (permalink)  
 
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Old 28th Aug 2019, 22:39
  #1707 (permalink)  
 
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Stan W

thank you for the link..

Originally Posted by WingNut60 View Post
Was the judgement that the referendum was "advisory" not only made some 4-5 months after the referendum was held?

Was the import of that judgement not of the vein that "Here's what we want you to do. We don't care how you do it."

Remember what I said about Cameron being an idiot? As I understand it the European Referendum Act 2015 simply stated there had to be a referendum....

By way of contrast the Alternative Vote Referendum in 2011 was legally binding...
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Old 28th Aug 2019, 22:48
  #1708 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by NutLoose View Post
True there may be a period of turmoil, but I firmly believe in this Country, that it is stronger than this and will grow from it..
irrespective of how you voted. Do you not see through the absolute division of this vote that this country is absolutely splitting at the seams and completely disintegrating.

And thats not because of the brexit vote. Thatís just a symptom.

Personally I first got an inkling during the London riots.

Nothing ive seen since then had changed my mind.
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Old 28th Aug 2019, 23:34
  #1709 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by back to Boeing View Post


irrespective of how you voted. Do you not see through the absolute division of this vote that this country is absolutely splitting at the seams and completely disintegrating.

And thats not because of the brexit vote. Thatís just a symptom.

Personally I first got an inkling during the London riots.

Nothing ive seen since then had changed my mind.
They simply don't see it. The United Kingdom was at best an always an artificial entity. It worked as long as everyone bought into it. But really it's English hegemony over their nearest neighbours.

The notion of Britishness has taken a hit lately. The only people absolutely wedded to it are the Unionists in Northern Ireland who use it as a shield from being described as Irish.

On top of that we have people born in England of parents born in England who cannot call themselves English. British yes, that catch all. UK citizen. But not English. Wrong ethnic background
​​​​​​.
The problem with the Brexiteers is that they never really had a problem with Europe or the EU. Even if they imagined it. The problem was the perceived dilution of Englishness. With all those foreign people arriving and embracing the freedom of living in England. They seem to feel they lost their identity.

Which is bizarre because English attitudes of freedom and tolerance has spread throughout the world.

Witness Hong Kong of late. They retained their notions of freedom to the point Beijing is reluctant to interfere.

Boris Johnson and his cabal have made a calculated move. I think it's time to take to the streets.

It's that important.







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Old 29th Aug 2019, 00:08
  #1710 (permalink)  
 
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True there may be a period of turmoil, but I firmly believe in this Country, that it is stronger than this and will grow from it..
Doubt it unfortunately, too many things irrevocably broken, from society, equality, health, housing, standard of living... suspect austerity was the straw that broke the camels back, brexit just hastened things. On a recent trip to the UK for a few meetings was shocked to see the changes over the last decade... it looked and felt nothing like the country I left in '98... the poverty in evidence beats third rate provincial russian cities hands down... possibly austerity has actually damaged the country far worse than many can imagine I don't know...

Stan, loved that link... didn't know whether to laugh or cry.
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Old 29th Aug 2019, 02:02
  #1711 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Pontius Navigator View Post
No, just a best guess based on personal experience.
that gets us to the 50/50 referendum result; for that is what it was.

now jump to the 32nd of October

how will the UK trade with the EU?

what arrangements (deal) will be put in place?

anyone can leave the EU on 31 October. What's the plan thereafter?

can you define your version of a successful Brexit?

can you outline what should be done if that is not achieved? It's a fair request. Bet you won't.

the 'debate' will continue. the UK will be out of the EU

what happens if a party campaigns at the next election and wins on a platform of rejoining and the EU accept an immediate return on current terms. Maybe on 15th November?

all during a period of post brexit 'turmoil'

Not an impossible scenario.

Last edited by Islandlad; 29th Aug 2019 at 02:24.
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Old 29th Aug 2019, 02:37
  #1712 (permalink)  
 
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Just one more post. Honest!

So, Cornish Jack keeps telling us that we are leaving the EU because of the wishes of only 24% of the population. Or something like that.

I think his argument is flawed and have told him that before. It did prompt some research for me though.

In 1975 only 43% of the UK population voted to remain in the EC during a non binding referendum. Does that mean the other 57% have been living in sufferage ever since?

Also, I am racist, Iíll-informed and not of the same calibre as a remainer am I?

I love the delicious irony of someone who clearly claims to be of a higher intellect and moral standing casually branding over 17 million people with one big fat xenophobic brush.

Me: 42 years old, father of 3, RAF fast jet pilot of 20 years, qualified primary school teacher, travelled the world extensively and lived in three foreign countries during my lifetime, one of which is another EU member. Also, patently not racist.

You: ?!

If you want people to believe your argument, you have to be a little more open minded and mature about it.

As an example, Wiggy and I are clearly on opposite sides of the argument. At no time have we insulted each other or come to verbal blows. We can respect each otherís opinions and disagree without resorting to petty insults.

BV
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Old 29th Aug 2019, 02:42
  #1713 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by NutLoose View Post
Racist? Ill informed? Not of the calibre? Misjudge?.... Do not have the temerity to tell me how I voted and where I went wrong, you sir are a fool.

My dear chap, you are so wide of the mark, yes I voted leave and fervently believe we will be a better country freed from the onerous burden of the EU.
True there may be a period of turmoil, but I firmly believe in this Country, that it is stronger than this and will grow from it.

BUT what really grips me is every remainer, every opposition MP, keep shouting Democracy.... Democracy.... Democracy......
while ignoring the ONE democratic vote we have had on the subject and choose to ignore it. And now we have these same people decrying a no deal exit while seemingly both deaf and blind to the obvious fact the vote was to leave period and in no way, shape or form was any method of achieving that result mentioned.
NutLoose

I will take it that I am the fool you refer to.

will you answer the above questions I pose?

I don't have a problem with leaving the EU. It's the 'how' and 'what next' that concerns me.

for you it all seems to stop at getting out.

do you have a plan? We have to trade. We have to eat. On what terms are we to do this?

fair question from a fool?

Originally Posted by NutLoose View Post
.... and in no way, shape or form was any method of achieving that result mentioned.
that is the bit that has always worried me

essentially getting airborne without a plan
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Old 29th Aug 2019, 02:55
  #1714 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Bob Viking View Post
So, Cornish Jack keeps telling us that we are leaving the EU because of the wishes of only 24% of the population. Or something like that.

I think his argument is flawed and have told him that before. It did prompt some research for me though.

In 1975 only 43% of the UK population voted to remain in the EC during a non binding referendum. Does that mean the other 57% have been living in sufferage ever since?

Also, I am racist, Iíll-informed and not of the same calibre as a remainer am I?

I love the delicious irony of someone who clearly claims to be of a higher intellect and moral standing casually branding over 17 million people with one big fat xenophobic brush.

Me: 42 years old, father of 3, RAF fast jet pilot of 20 years, qualified primary school teacher, travelled the world extensively and lived in three foreign countries during my lifetime, one of which is another EU member. Also, patently not racist.

You: ?!

If you want people to believe your argument, you have to be a little more open minded and mature about it.

As an example, Wiggy and I are clearly on opposite sides of the argument. At no time have we insulted each other or come to verbal blows. We can respect each otherís opinions and disagree without resorting to petty insults.

BV
BV

if you are responding to my post you are taking it out of context

if not, ignore this one.

adding that my reply to Mr Optimistic was just about him referring to an election not a referendum
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Old 29th Aug 2019, 03:20
  #1715 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Spanish eyes View Post
So the remoaner MP's are saying it is an affront on democracy. What is actually an affront to democracy are those MP's who campaigned to stay in, lost the vote and then never accepted the decision of the people. They have all got what they diverse for ignoring the will of the people.
two events in British politics spring to mind when I read this

the election of Jeremy Corbyn as Labour Leader and the EU referendum to leave

those who ran them assumed that JC didn't stand a chance and the British voters would vote to remain

after the event those involved in setting them up wish they had defined the terms and the order of events more accurately because they didn't like the result.

ironic that the one is now having such an influence on the other

maybe the will of the people has changed?

I have an idea. Let's have a referendum to check.
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Old 29th Aug 2019, 03:21
  #1716 (permalink)  
 
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Negative Ghostrider.

Rest easy IslandLad. Mr O is the current source of my ire.

BV
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Old 29th Aug 2019, 03:44
  #1717 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Steepclimb View Post
They simply don't see it. The United Kingdom was at best an always an artificial entity. It worked as long as everyone bought into it. But really it's English hegemony over their nearest neighbours.

The notion of Britishness has taken a hit lately. The only people absolutely wedded to it are the Unionists in Northern Ireland who use it as a shield from being described as Irish.

On top of that we have people born in England of parents born in England who cannot call themselves English. British yes, that catch all. UK citizen. But not English. Wrong ethnic background
​​​​​​.
The problem with the Brexiteers is that they never really had a problem with Europe or the EU. Even if they imagined it. The problem was the perceived dilution of Englishness. With all those foreign people arriving and embracing the freedom of living in England. They seem to feel they lost their identity.

Which is bizarre because English attitudes of freedom and tolerance has spread throughout the world.

Witness Hong Kong of late. They retained their notions of freedom to the point Beijing is reluctant to interfere.

Boris Johnson and his cabal have made a calculated move. I think it's time to take to the streets.

It's that important.

​​​​​
The UK is having a long overdue debate with itself

leaving the EU is just part of it

many do not like what that debate is revealing

having started the debate many want it over and done with, without addressing the issues that have emerged

quite what the future will bring is not clear to me but the next 20 years are going to be very interesting

think carefully before pulling corks out of bottles

some genies are malevolent

if one lives in the UK you can be British but born English. Will that still be the case in 20 years?
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Old 29th Aug 2019, 03:54
  #1718 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Bob Viking View Post
Rest easy IslandLad. Mr O is the current source of my ire.

BV
Oh that I could rest easy. I fear for the country I hold dear

​​​​"This royal throne of kings, this scepter'd isle, This earth of majesty, this seat of Mars... This blessed plot, this earth, this realm, this England" this UK
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Old 29th Aug 2019, 06:55
  #1719 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Islandlad View Post
what happens if a party campaigns at the next election and wins on a platform of rejoining and the EU accept an immediate return on current terms. Maybe on 15th November?
Highly unlikely. The UK at the moment is so extremely divided that it would not be a wise decision. Maybe in 3 to 5 years. If this is the case the UK (or what will be left of it) will have to apply like any other country. Otherwise the EU loses credibility IMO.

in my eyes the only outcome is no deal, or possibly a ďno dealĒ dressed as a ďwithdrawal agreementĒ that both sides can sell. For anything else I believe it is too little too late. Itís time the UK GOV starts preparing for no deal like the French, Belgianís, Dutch and Irish already have done.
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Old 29th Aug 2019, 07:14
  #1720 (permalink)  
 
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Now our elected representatives are whinging that they are being deprived of 14 days to resolve all the problems. Poor misguided, self centred, myopic dears 🤬
They have had 1161 days listening to their own noise. I donít see another 14 making any difference to their proven incompetence and oral incontinence.
They have dug a hole of almost unfathomable depth and dropped us all in it.
Respectfully submitted for consideration.
David
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