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BREXIT

Old 21st Aug 2019, 12:16
  #1361 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by NoelEvans View Post
Yet another person who does not read before posting.

Neither Britain nor Ireland are in Schengen and never have been. They are in the Common Travel Area which predates Schengen by over seven decades.

If you are a Romanian Gypsy and you have an EU passport you will be able to enter the UK directly as visitor, the same way that many other nationalities can do. You would not be permitted to stay though. No need to go all the way around through Ireland just to do that.

If you were a Latvian drug dealer that Britain did not want in the country, then Ireland would most likely have that information too. Way back to 1923 part of the agreement was that the two countries would work together on matters like that and that Ireland would know who is personae non gratae in the UK.

I think that you are trying to imagine 'problems' that just aren't there.

Unlike the divisions in Belgium which seems to make the Brits look delightfully harmonious.
Meow, someone’s defensive. Another poster either deliberately ignoring the facts to suit their fairytale....or just not hearing them

The issue for your border is not the free movement of British or Irish nationals over it, so the CTA is irrelevant. Anyone holding an EU passport has and will have free movement to and within ROI. They can stay within ROI for as long as they want without any monitoring whatsoever. How will you, Britain, prevent them from getting to Belfast/London/Edinburgh etc without any kind of border? How will you even know they’ve entered the UK?


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Old 21st Aug 2019, 12:19
  #1362 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Fitter2 View Post
Fly Aiprt


But there already is a Schengen like agreement between ROI and UK (plus Isle of Man and Channel Islands) - it's called the Common Travel Area, and predates Schengen by over half a Century
As said the point is not free movement of British or Irish, it’s how are you going to monitor EU nationals entering the UK without a border?
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Old 21st Aug 2019, 12:24
  #1363 (permalink)  
 
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It would be simpler for all if we simply traded Northern Ireland for Greenland
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Old 21st Aug 2019, 12:28
  #1364 (permalink)  
 
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One of the major problems with the English is that they see almost everything in Europe in economic terms ( a "nation of shopkeepers" no less) and seem oblivious to the emotional factors that drive the whole set-up[/QUOTE]

Wasn't that quote attributed to Napoleon ? ... we all know what happened to him, also a shorthouse btw !

I believe it is not the economic issues that drive the desire to leave the EU, more the annoyance of constant interference, red tape and a wish to return to full judicial independence. Shopkeepers are an independent bunch after all !

Interestingly ROI is one of the UK,s largest trade partners within the EU and vice versa ( distance matters it seems) Hopefully the trade arrangements on both sides will allow this fruitful cooperation to continue, despite Varadkers blind allegiance to his masters in Brussels .

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Old 21st Aug 2019, 12:29
  #1365 (permalink)  
 
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Isn't that why leaving the EU = a controlled border, not having one is only compatible with staying in the EU to all practical purposes. Now if we could get the Irish to come and join us...but I guess they are a net recipient.
My attitude to the EU has hardened considerably. As a financial and political entity the EU has problems ( UK, Greece, Spain, Italy, Hungary and the German refusal to distribute its budget surplus), not to mention the imminent trade negotiations with the UK when the EU will be forced to adopt the hardest stance proposed by its most affected constituent as it lacks effective internal negotiation. All well and good when the only path is expansion but.....
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Old 21st Aug 2019, 12:51
  #1366 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Mr Optimistic
Isn't that why leaving the EU = a controlled border, not having one is only compatible with staying in the EU to all practical purposes.
No.

For all 'practical purposes' there is no need for an Irish 'border' between Eire and NI as far as UK and Eire are concerned.

The only griping about the need for a border are eu know-nothing and their UK army of remoaners.

Everyone knows that it is darkest just before dawn, and that the remainiac wailing will be loudest just before 'brexit'.

Thank you for reading.
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Old 21st Aug 2019, 12:55
  #1367 (permalink)  
 
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No problem. Seems to me that if you have concerns about 'sovereignty' then the power to control your own borders is crucial, even if it is only a question of principle rather than necessarily of practice. To want to distance yourself from the EU but at the same time promising no border seems a fundamental contradiction, as a previous nebulous idiot in No 10 seems not to have understood.
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Old 21st Aug 2019, 13:02
  #1368 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Mr Optimistic
Seems to me that if you have concerns about 'sovereignty' then the power to control your own borders is crucial...
Yes. The 'power' to determine whether we (UK & Eire) want or need a border on the island of Ireland should be a sovereign matter, not an EU one, you're quite right.

Thank you for reading.
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Old 21st Aug 2019, 13:02
  #1369 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by SaulGoodman View Post
Ok. So the CTA pre dates the Schengen area. Fine.
Now that the UK is about to leave the EU, don’t you think that the ROI may actually opt to join Schengen? Probably even more likely in case of “no deal”.



Any action by the Irish government that put the CTA at risk (and joining Schengen would surely make that a certainty) would mean them having to face the ire (excuse the pun!) of the Irish population. Looking at the UK resident posters here who themselves, or thought their Irish parents/grandparents, have benefitted from the CTA enabling them to move freely to the UK and settle here. The removal of that ability by any action such as joining Schengen would probably be 'terminal' for the Irish government of the day.
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Old 21st Aug 2019, 13:02
  #1370 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by LowNSlow View Post
It is nothing to do with the UK applying for membership of the EEC, it's the fact that the British people were deliberately misled by the British Government of the day, and every subsequent British Government, that the end game was a United Europe and not just a Common Market which was the sales pitch of the 1975 referendum.
With such a public campaign, Parliament speeches, lots of press reports, all those years between the first application and the final third one, how come the Brits could have been "deliberately misled" ?
If anything, maybe some of them deliberately ignored the information at their disposal.
Or is it because they massively voted 'remain' at the time, that you think they "must have been deliberately misled" ?

Oh and BTW, what if that were the Brexit voters that had been "deliberately misled by the British Governement"^^?


Originally Posted by LowNSlow View Post
Pretty much every country in Europe has been referred to as the "sick man of Europe" including the EU itself.

Not sure it changes anything with the bad situation of the UK in the 60'-70'.
Fly Aiprt is offline  
Old 21st Aug 2019, 13:09
  #1371 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by bpilatus View Post
Yes. The 'power' to determine whether we (UK & Eire) want or need a border on the island of Ireland should be a sovereign matter, not an EU one, you're quite right.

Thank you for reading.
I fully agree. What comes across as really shallow political point scoring is politicians from elsewhere in Europe bleating on about "the backstop is essential to protect the border in Ireland" when those politicians clearly do not have clue what they are talking about. It is as bpilatus says,an "UK & Eire" matter first and foremost. Politicians wanting to help would be nice to hear from but those digging in their heels saying 'the backstop must stay' are the ones most likely to harm the GFA.
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Old 21st Aug 2019, 13:12
  #1372 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by NoelEvans View Post
Any action by the Irish government that put the CTA at risk (and joining Schengen would surely make that a certainty) would mean them having to face the ire (excuse the pun!) of the Irish population. Looking at the UK resident posters here who themselves, or thought their Irish parents/grandparents, have benefitted from the CTA enabling them to move freely to the UK and settle here. The removal of that ability by any action such as joining Schengen would probably be 'terminal' for the Irish government of the day.
You really couldn’t be more wrong. Ireland is far more pro EU than pro UK, and being told what I should feel by an English person only reminds me why. If the CTA has to go to preserve our free movement within the EU, so be it. The UK is our largest single trading partner, but overall we trade far more with the EU as a whole.
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Old 21st Aug 2019, 13:14
  #1373 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by bpilatus View Post
No.

For all 'practical purposes' there is no need for an Irish 'border' between Eire and NI as far as UK and Eire are concerned.

The only griping about the need for a border are eu know-nothing and their UK army of remoaners.
No need to call names and insult your European neighbours and countrymen.
Have you designed a clever way of regaining control of your borders ? If so, by all means feel free to let us know.
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Old 21st Aug 2019, 13:16
  #1374 (permalink)  
 
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@Fly, is that what you really meant to say?
ps, I don't think the English need to be told that the Irish value others more !
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Old 21st Aug 2019, 13:31
  #1375 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Fly Aiprt
Have you designed a clever way of regaining control of your borders?
Yes.

It is called 'brexit' and it means that our sovereign government (and only our sovereign government) decides how we manage our borders.

It is so, so, simple I am surprised it hasn't 'clicked' yet for you.

Thank you for reading
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Old 21st Aug 2019, 13:32
  #1376 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by bpilatus View Post
Yes. The 'power' to determine whether we (UK & Eire) want or need a border on the island of Ireland should be a sovereign matter, not an EU one, you're quite right.

Thank you for reading.
That’s your opinion and you are perfectly entitled to it. However it is not the case. Ireland is part of the EU and the population is pro EU. As part of the EU, Ireland allows free entry and movement of EU citizens. How do you think the UK can monitor EU citizens entering Britain via NI without a border?
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Old 21st Aug 2019, 13:38
  #1377 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by bpilatus View Post
Yes.

It is called 'brexit' and it means that our sovereign government (and only our sovereign government) decides how we manage our borders.

It is so, so, simple I am surprised it hasn't 'clicked' yet for you.

Thank you for reading
So you have no answer, only the magic word 'Brexit'.

​​​​​​Brexit is an end in itself and there is no plan for what follows it. Good luck with that.

.
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Old 21st Aug 2019, 13:40
  #1378 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Una Due Tfc
How do you think the UK can monitor EU citizens entering Britain via NI without a border?
This strawman of yours has been dismissed many times before, however as a courtesy I will just reiterate that the decision to 'monitor' eu citizens who may wander into the UK via Eire is a UK decision to take, not an eu one.

You eu folk love your 'monitoring' and 'controlling' of stuff.

Thank you for reading.
bpilatus is offline  
Old 21st Aug 2019, 13:42
  #1379 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by bpilatus View Post
This strawman of yours has been dismissed many times before, however as a courtesy I will just reiterate that the decision to 'monitor' eu citizens who may wander into the UK via Eire is a UK decision to take, not an eu one.

You eu folk love your 'monitoring' and 'controlling' of stuff.

Thank you for reading.
So you’re going to end the free movement of EU citizens but you’re going to leave the back door wide open? Fair enough.

All these EU citizens supposedly cramming up British prisons and draining the NHS will be delighted. After you “send them home”, they can just jump on a flight to Dublin (or get the ferry from France), and make their way back to wherever they were in the UK previously. And the best part? Unlike when they entered legally, the authorities won’t even know they’re there!



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Old 21st Aug 2019, 13:43
  #1380 (permalink)  
 
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According to Fly Aiprt's #1358, we were not "cunned" into signing an unfair agreement. Thank goodness for that, although I suppose some might have enjoyed it.
Barksdale Boy is offline  

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