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BREXIT

Old 14th Aug 2019, 13:41
  #1001 (permalink)  
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It seems so long ago now that its hard to remember the referendum-a democratic vote of course but an unelected PM with no majority apparently is also democracy as is denying proper briefings to our head of state.
PB, no matter his many times you peddle this line, the only thing true is it seems a long time ago. The rest is nonsense.
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Old 14th Aug 2019, 13:58
  #1002 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by 101917 View Post
For those amongst you who thought Cameron brought back nothing worthwhile from Brussels you may wish to read that agreement again. In particular the bit regarding Sovereignty.

Many voted to leave so that the UK would regain/get its sovereignty back. Something we had never lost and would not lose in the future.

There were also many other myths that the leave campaign would have us believe that were also totally false.

This was part of the agreement Cameron brought back from Brussels.

SOVEREIGNTY

1. It is recognised that the United Kingdom, in the light of the specific situation it has under the Treaties, is not committed to further political integration into the European Union. The substance of this will be incorporated into the Treaties at the time of their next revision in accordance with the relevant provisions of the Treaties and the respective constitutional requirements of the Member States, so as to make it clear that the references to ever closer union do not apply to the United Kingdom.”
this is the EU we are talking about .. they just won’t refer to ‘ever closer union ‘ whilst doing it
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Old 14th Aug 2019, 15:15
  #1003 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by MOSTAFA View Post
What part o fYES don’t you understand? And before you regurgitate more and more examples of what you understand as Democracy let’s got back to the beginning - the then PM, decided to have a gamble to try and move his drinks cabinet closer to the EU. He made it very clear what that gamble involved, no ambiguity. The democratic will of the UK was to leave, no if’s no buts, no left wing slants. The democratic will of the UK was to leave
Excellent (BTW thanks to ORAC for the correction)..So it sounds like you think it is OK for the PM to use the parliamentary clock /procedure to restrict any further debate on the manner of leaving, (personally I think the situation is such that the MPs ought to back at Westminster right now)

When there is a "left wing" government in power ( and it will happen) I take it there will be no complaints if they decide to use democracy in the form of parliamentary procedure, conference season, etc, to limit debate?

Fundamentally I'm fast getting past caring, I would only ask that if the wheels fall off the vocal Brexiters "own" the problems on the basis that they knew it was a gamble, that they knew "leave means leave" and it was the "will" of a proportion of the British the people ...but somehow I doubt that is going to happen.

Last edited by wiggy; 14th Aug 2019 at 15:28.
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Old 14th Aug 2019, 15:17
  #1004 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by SARF View Post

this is the EU we are talking about .. they just won’t refer to ‘ever closer union ‘ whilst doing it

He did not bring anything back that had been approved by the other member states. That was the just one of the problems.
The other EU countries were not due to vote on Cameron's concessions until AFTER the referendum.

Please correct me if I am wrong.
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Old 14th Aug 2019, 16:11
  #1005 (permalink)  
 
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Pelosi making it very clear, Disrupt Good Friday Agreement and there is no deal. It is Congress that approves it and it will not be a partisan action either.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-49348062
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Old 14th Aug 2019, 16:19
  #1006 (permalink)  
 
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Having read the first link, it makes one wonder whether Bercow is working outside the intent of his position with his latest actions, noted in the Guardian link below:

https://www.parliament.uk/business/c...f-the-speaker/

https://www.theguardian.com/politics...nt-for-no-deal
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Old 14th Aug 2019, 16:22
  #1007 (permalink)  
 
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Peddling nonsense-whats the value of the pound

How many jobs lost already

Maybe I exaggerate a bit but I am only me-i am not on national TV exaggerating and lying about the benefits to the NHS and the simplicity of leaving

And by the way what actually are the real reasons for leaving

And as for Boris and the inflammatory remakes about collaborators who is collaborating with the USA and giving into their every whim
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Old 14th Aug 2019, 16:49
  #1008 (permalink)  
 
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Wiggy as you find it so difficult to understand my answer I will say it yet again - Yes.
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Old 14th Aug 2019, 16:51
  #1009 (permalink)  
 
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What’s the real reason? It’s called DEMOCRACY.
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Old 14th Aug 2019, 17:32
  #1010 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by wiggy View Post
Excellent (BTW thanks to ORAC for the correction)..So it sounds like you think it is OK for the PM to use the parliamentary clock /procedure to restrict any further debate on the manner of leaving, (personally I think the situation is such that the MPs ought to back at Westminster right now)

When there is a "left wing" government in power ( and it will happen) I take it there will be no complaints if they decide to use democracy in the form of parliamentary procedure, conference season, etc, to limit debate?

Fundamentally I'm fast getting past caring, I would only ask that if the wheels fall off the vocal Brexiters "own" the problems on the basis that they knew it was a gamble, that they knew "leave means leave" and it was the "will" of a proportion of the British the people ...but somehow I doubt that is going to happen.
My bold. Naturally I understand where you are coming from. But in reality hasn't this been debated to death? What new bold idea is waiting in the wings to ensure we leave the EU with either a satisfactory deal or no deal. There isn't really anything, its become a HoP hamsterwheel where nothing is agreed and MPs go around and around in endless loops only agreeing not to agree on anything. If there was something substantive to debate then I'm sure they would, but there isn't. Much better I think to bring this all to an end and the quicker the better, as country we need to move on.

Last edited by yellowtriumph; 14th Aug 2019 at 19:26.
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Old 14th Aug 2019, 17:48
  #1011 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by yellowtriumph View Post
. Much better I think to bring this all to an end and the quicker the better, as country we need to move on.
Remarkably similar to the thoughts of Trump then........unfortunately, several million UK citizens would not agree with you.......including me....because once the rhetoric ceases, the insidious and damaging effects will begin in earnest and those effects do not constitute moving on......more like full reverse.

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Old 14th Aug 2019, 18:42
  #1012 (permalink)  
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Looks like the Withdrawal Agreement might be making a comeback........

https://www.theguardian.com/politics...gh-brexit-deal
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Old 14th Aug 2019, 20:58
  #1013 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by pax britanica View Post
And by the way what actually are the real reasons for leaving
Nail, head, hit.

My MiL would probably cite WW2 and everything that stemmed from that. I think in my wife's case in its basic form - envy. She would cite better infrastructure on the continent from roads, pavements, streetlights, and benefits bestowed on Spanish or Greek citizens.

This despite both ordinary Greeks and Italians telling us that Britain is lucky not being fully integrated. This was before the referendum.

The huge non voting part of the population was probably indifferent. Of the voters I would opin that ignorance predominated.

Where we are now I see the likes of Philip Hammond as a true traitor. Under the guise of getting a deal he has been fighting in cabinet, in parliament, and in their media to thwart the will of the people as did vote in the referendum.

Listening to the radio today I heard mixed messages from Labour. One said, we lost, no second referendum go for a deal. Another wants a confirmatory referendum etc.
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Old 14th Aug 2019, 21:11
  #1014 (permalink)  
 
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It seems to me that at a time of national crisis like this, parliament should remain sitting every day until Brexit actually happens. .
Even if they cannot come to any new compromise on the existing exit plan, they should be there in order to discuss any new development that might arrive.
It is just plain wrong that they can all p1ss off on holidays and party conferences under the present circumstance.
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Old 14th Aug 2019, 21:36
  #1015 (permalink)  
 
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The irony is that before the referendum only 6 % of the population gave a stuff about the EU . Most had more pressing personal matters to attend to.
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Old 14th Aug 2019, 21:38
  #1016 (permalink)  
 
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Someone writing recently in a national publication ( I forget which) about some absurdity of modern life signed off his letter with "I am losing the will to live". I know how he feels.
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Old 14th Aug 2019, 22:15
  #1017 (permalink)  
 
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So Corbyn is playing his hand.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49352250

IT annoys me that all this crap about mandates, democracy and the will of parliament is drifting away from the real issue and that is the democratic will of the people, while the likes of Corbyn it is all down with a self centred ambition and screw the Country. Let the man have the time to bring the EU back to the table and that needs a viable hard Brexit to remain on the table.

I see the muppets on newsnight picking up on trucks of medicine flown into the UK and they are reading it as Lorries as being carried and not simply the load lol. Looking around they identified only 10 AN124's capable of carrying lorries.
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Old 14th Aug 2019, 22:47
  #1018 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Pontius Navigator View Post
Nail, head, hit.


Where we are now I see the likes of Philip Hammond as a true traitor.
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Hammond is the MP for Runnymede in Surrey, his constituents voted to leave the EU. He voted to remain, he is betraying his constituents this is not what he was elected to do.
Yet he dresses it up by stating that a possible no deal is not what the voters wanted which is his codefor remain
I believe that he has undermined the leaving process in all his time as chancellor and has paid only lip service to his constituents wishes

Curiously I am ambivalent to the final outcome but this
behaviour is self serving and disappointing to say the least.
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Old 14th Aug 2019, 22:55
  #1019 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by pax britanica View Post
Not that much of the media will point ti out but Boris has for
1 Outright lies
2 Deceiving people-viz his wife and newspaper editors he falsified stories for
3 Deceiving himself- has not the faintest idea where the money for all these things will come from-not the Rich or American corporations thats for sure
4 Being easily influenced through his vanity and laziness -all well documented
5 Not understanding the consequences of his actions might take more than a week to emerge

Also any PM who threatens the sovereignty of parliament should be instantly removed from office and face charges of treason. A s we have no head of state as such we have only parliament between us dictatorship and that looks like where we will be heading if parliament is removed form the equation. How about the PM just deciding he will stay in power for ten years or maybe twenty . 1930s Germany 20teens England far far too may similarities
I'm sorry Pax, you are utterly wasting your time. They won't be convinced. The 1930's Germany comparison is apt not that they realise and in any case you'll be accused of Godwinism.
Unfortunately I have become convinced that only a no deal exit will fix the problem. While the consequences will be disastrous and there will casualties, a lot of casualties mostly among the Landsers of the loyalists who voted for Brexit. Eventually people will wonder what on Earth they were thinking believing in a crazy man and his acolytes.

You see remaining in the EU will be seen as a betrayal and foster extremism forever. Signing up to the Versailles agreement , sorry exit deal will just put off the war for a few years.

No a hard Brexit and all its consequences might finally end the cult of British exceptionalism, no English exceptionalism.

A bit like Germany.

Maybe it's needed. But the United Kingdom is doomed. The last vestige of the English empire.





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Old 15th Aug 2019, 06:13
  #1020 (permalink)  
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Taken verbatim ( bit of Latin there please note ORAC ) from a report in today's Guardian.......

" A No 10 spokesman responded to Corbyn’s letter saying there was a “a clear choice: either Jeremy Corbyn as prime minister who will overrule the referendum and wreck the economy, or Boris Johnson as prime minister who will respect the referendum and deliver more money for the NHS and more police on our streets”.

‘This government believes the people are the masters and votes should be respected, Jeremy Corbyn believes that the people are the servants and politicians can cancel public votes they don’t like,” he added "

Obviously, any statement from No 10 is unlikely to say Boris is hell bent on using Brexit as his personal ego massager and the less than subtle electioneering references to the NHS / Police are now par for the course.

But it's the last bit, as underlined, that's in a puerile class of it's own......given Boris is, seemingly, intent on his own version of autocracy .....

https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...andoff-cartoon
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