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BREXIT

Old 17th Jan 2021, 10:00
  #8761 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by alfaman View Post
The British are very lucky, though: English is commonly spoken, because it's the primary language in the USA.
Isn't this the point. We don't cos we don't need to. The dominance of British/American Film/Television/Music means that English is ubiquitous?

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Old 17th Jan 2021, 10:05
  #8762 (permalink)  
 
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I suspect in the majority of cases itís the opportunity for practise rather than laziness. We spent 3 years in the Netherlands, arriving when CP jr was 5. We deliberately put him into a regular Dutch school so that he would learn the language, and within 6 months he was fluent and had no English accent to the extent that when he met up with other kids in the park for example, their parents were incredulous that neither I nor his Mum were Dutch. 2 things helped I think- he had good teachers at school who seemed to find the balance between encouraging him to pick up Dutch, but not making him feel excluded in the early days before picking some words up; and he was totally immersed in the language 5 days a week at school.

Contrast that with my wife and I who were both working, but in an environment where English was largely the norm, and even if we tried to speak Dutch it would quickly fizzle out as everyone would switch to English. Still, we always had a young translator at home we could turn to! I even tried to practise on his friends who couldnít switch to English, but my efforts only seemed to make them laugh!

After 3 years we returned to the UK, and 6 months later one of his friendís families came to visit. CP jr could still communicate with his mate in Dutch, but apparently it was obvious that he was now thinking in English and translating, rather than fluent. A year later and his mate was pretty fluent in English and that was that. Once he started at secondary school he was taught German and Spanish, and never took to either. We thought he would be good at German due to the similarities to Dutch, but he didnít like the teacher so it never worked out.

An interesting experiment would be to drop him back into a totally Dutch speaking environment now heís hit 20 and see how quickly it all came back.

Unfortunately I think the foreign language problems of Brits have more to do with our efforts to spread English in the 18th and 19th centuries than anything else. After all, if the Dutch want to communicate with anyone outside their country other than parts of Belgium (no sniggering at the back please!) then they have much more incentive to learn languages than we do.
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Old 17th Jan 2021, 10:17
  #8763 (permalink)  
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I lived in Paris for nearly 3 years but worked on a NATO multinational programme where everyone spoke English. Outside work people wanted t9 speak English to improve their vocabulary so I ended up with “shopping French”, enough to get by but not much more.

I moved to Spain for 3 years on joint venture with INDRA, not a multinational programme as such, but the system was for Eurocontrol and all paperwork and manuals were in English, as was the working environment as it turned out. Even though it was a Spanish company everyone spoke in English to us as, again, they wanted to 8mprove their ability as most were hoping to get work in the USA.

I was more determined this time and took Spanish classes 4 nights a week for 6 months, but the result was the same, good enough to get by - but people used to plead with me to switch to English because my accent was so bad.

Now, 10 years later, my brain confuses both and when I try I speak a kind of Spanish-French mix which confuses people even more.

Disculpame.

I understand there are millions I& people around the world who use the internet who can read and write English but can’t speak it; and in places with non-Roman script such as Greece there is concern as many of those under 30 use a modified spelling on the 26 letter alphabet as that is the keyboard layout they most encounter and jt# easier than using keyboard combinations to generate the rest.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greeklish

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pinyin



Last edited by ORAC; 17th Jan 2021 at 10:27.
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Old 17th Jan 2021, 10:27
  #8764 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by ORAC View Post
I lived in Paris for nearly 3 years but worked on a NATO multinational programme where everyone spoke English. Outside work people wanted t9 speak English to improve their vocabulary so I ended up with “shopping French”, enough to get by but not much more..
Shopping French - not heard that one..slightly depressingly I realise you have given me a very good description of my own level. *sigh*

Edited to add... except I can swear reasonably fluently
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Old 17th Jan 2021, 10:51
  #8765 (permalink)  
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As we know, to much fanfare, the UK has left the EU and is forging ahead with a return to global dominance .....we're not, but, that's not going to bother those who believe we are....unfortunately, and again, Boris et al seem to have inexplicably missed some of the finer details, the little matter of increased expenditure for organisations, and ultimately the customer, assuming said organisations can still carry on trading, rears its inconvenient head.....there again, this is possibly another rarity with Boris. speaking the truth, given his immortal remark about " f%*k business !"..which he seems intent on doing.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics...ish-businesses
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Old 17th Jan 2021, 11:11
  #8766 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by ORAC View Post
I lived in Paris for nearly 3 years but worked on a NATO multinational programme where everyone spoke English. Outside work people wanted t9 speak English to improve their vocabulary so I ended up with “shopping French”, enough to get by but not much more.

I moved to Spain for 3 years on joint venture with INDRA, not a multinational programme as such, but the system was for Eurocontrol and all paperwork and manuals were in English, as was the working environment as it turned out. Even though it was a Spanish company everyone spoke in English to us as, again, they wanted to 8mprove their ability as most were hoping to get work in the USA.

I was more determined this time and took Spanish classes 4 nights a week for 6 months, but the result was the same, good enough to get by - but people used to plead with me to switch to English because my accent was so bad.

Now, 10 years later, my brain confuses both and when I try I speak a kind of Spanish-French mix which confuses people even more.

Disculpame.

I understand there are millions I& people around the world who use the internet who can read and write English but can’t speak it; and in places with non-Roman script such as Greece there is concern as many of those under 30 use a modified spelling on the 26 letter alphabet as that is the keyboard layout they most encounter and jt# easier than using keyboard combinations to generate the rest.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greeklish

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pinyin

A couple of years ago as part of a holiday we turned up at a remote island off the Chilean coast. The local mayor invited us to have a look round and our guide mentioned that upon hearing our unexpected arrival a local family had positioned themselves in the local church where the mother was keen to try out her english. We duly arrived at the church and were delighted to chat with the mother who warmly greeted us and proceeded to engage us in conversation. Her spoken english and comprehension was pretty good, very good in fact despite some occasional hesitation at times. We asked her where had she learnt english and the reply somewhat astonished us - it was all from watching DVDs of various different programmes on the telly! That made her achievement all the more remarkable.

She had her two young children with her, both of early school age. The daughter could only repetitively, very repetitively, sing 'Let it Go' much to the annoyance of her young brother who had clearly heard it many many many times before.

Last edited by yellowtriumph; 17th Jan 2021 at 16:44.
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Old 17th Jan 2021, 14:41
  #8767 (permalink)  
 
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I get ribbed when in Spain as my Spanish is South American in dialect (Chile) and they say I try to speak too correctly, in comparison with a native Spanish speaker. Likewise in Germany in our office in Munich the locals rib me about my North German "Plat" accent as they have a more Sing Song Bavarian one. My cousins young son grew up in the Black Forest Germany with an English Dad, Swedish Mum, Dutch Nannie and when young if he did not know a word, in say English, he would borrow the Swedish, Dutch, German word he did know. He used all the languages as an alphabet soup, and it did make for interesting conversations !! Luckily he has been able to retain his early skill, and speaks all four languages fluently, and now works in international banking .

Cheers
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Old 17th Jan 2021, 15:00
  #8768 (permalink)  
 
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When I first arrived in China I tried to learn Mandarin. There were not any classes as such so it had to be picked up locally. It became obvious fairly early on that any 'lessons' were to improve somebody's English, not my Chinese. Twenty years later there was little point; English having been a compulsory subject in schools virtually everybody below thirty knows sufficient English to sort out your problems for you.

I had to feel for a couple whom I met in Beijing some time ago. They had planned a Grande Tour of China for some considerable time and had gone to great lengths to learn Chinese. Confidently they arrived in Beijing to find that they had learned Cantonese.

Moronic & embarrassing, isn't it? An insult to all those of all nations that suffered so much in those dark times. Unless, & until, such clod hopping idiots actually learn to learn, it's always going to be an uphill struggle.
Some people can't take a joke. I'm glad that I'm not so moronic.
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Old 17th Jan 2021, 16:43
  #8769 (permalink)  
 
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I cannot help but tell of my efforts for international understanding: one day in my 38 ton truck I passed thru a gate into an enormous yard and was signalled to HALT by a child in uniform,complete with pistol belt so slack the pistol was bouncing off his knee with every step. He gave me a mouthful of German which I took to mean I had entered by the wrong gate, then strode off. I gathered a great lung-ful of air and bellowed, Achtung.Kommenzi hier ! About the only words I remembered from watching war movies. He halted,turned about and marched without the swagger to the door of my truck. I put half a smile on my face and asked as sweetly as I could, "Wo ist der....whatever he had said for gate". He there upon gave me very civil directions. And an international incident was avoided. Tony.
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Old 17th Jan 2021, 18:21
  #8770 (permalink)  
 
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A benefit of the U.K leaving the EU? No waiting for the EU to approve vaccines, no waiting for our rationed meagre share, no waiting for the coordinated EU rollout, or are we just more organised?





Last edited by LTNman; 17th Jan 2021 at 18:33.
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Old 17th Jan 2021, 18:58
  #8771 (permalink)  
 
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Yes we had a bit of a head start, I'm pretty confident that we will [email protected] up and the rest of europe will overtake us shortly, I voted for Brexit BTW, but im a realist if we were were still in the EU we would have simply had an extra layer of [email protected] up on top of our own so in that respect yes we are better out than in

Hope that makes sense
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Old 17th Jan 2021, 19:22
  #8772 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by LTNman View Post
A benefit of the U.K leaving the EU? No waiting for the EU to approve vaccines, no waiting for our rationed meagre share, no waiting for the coordinated EU rollout, or are we just more organised?

Not really: there's no requirement for an EU country to participate in the EU plan if they don't want to, so the UK could quite easily (as, in fact, it did) use their own systems & go their own way - the same as each country exerted their sovereignty to determine which course of action suited them best from the start. Logistics is something the UK armed forces are pretty experienced at, & that seems to be the major flaw on the continental plan. On the down side, the lack of sharing of ideas in the early days, due to Johnsons intransigence, probably cost lives as he fannied around shaking hands with various health professionals, ignoring the calls to cancel football matches & horse racing, & thinking up excuses for Cummings beahviour. Heads you win...
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Old 17th Jan 2021, 23:10
  #8773 (permalink)  
 
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A pretty withering, and interesting review of the current global position of the post-Brexit UK, from The Financial Timeís chief political commentator, Philip Stephens, by way of promoting his new book on the topic.

The Financial Times, 15th Jan 2021

In blowing up the European pillar of its foreign policy, Britain is confronted again with Achesonís question. Where does it fit in a world dominated by much larger power blocs? The Brexiters have long confused sovereignty with power. The notional sovereignty now reclaimed from Brussels does not confer a capacity to act. Instead, Britain has lost its voice in European affairs and diminished its influence in Washington.
https://www.ft.com/content/7192f64a-...6-c9a3beb884ea

JAS
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Old 18th Jan 2021, 07:24
  #8774 (permalink)  
 
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Could any of this not have been foreseen by business, and those who are now, very possibly regretting their decision to "vote leave" in June 2016?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-55638969

I fully expect some contributors to say that rejecting a shipment because it is labelled "UK" rather than "GB" but I'm afraid that the country code for the United Kingdom is GB, the shipper and their agent should have know n that. Then there's (shock horror) 4 pieces of paper rather than just a despatch note to ship a consignment. For Pete's sake, what did they expect; aside of what the leave campaign promised them which was of course a utopia where they could have as much cake as they wanted, and eat it.

Then there's the clothing retailer who decided to translate their website into German for their German customers. Well, who'd have thought that might have been a good idea, selling to a country using the language of that country!!!!! They surely understood that after Brexit there would be VAT (potentially duties as well, though that for many goods hasn't come to pass) as well as customs brokerage costs. if they had anything about them at all, they'd have set up an agency and distribution facility in the EU, shipped in bulk to an agent, negating the impact of customs clearance on individual end customers shipments and keeping the impact of Brexit as low as possible.

It's absolutely clear that because the UK has been in one enormous domestic market for 30-odd years SMEs and their employees completely underestimated the extent of change that was coming, even I imagine many of those who understood what a bad idea Brexit was for them, their businesses, and the prospects for their employees. There's going to be a lot of bad feeling over Brexit, possibly sooner than might have been the case had the Covid-19 vaccination rate not been so efficient, since as the covid effect subsides the spotlight will fall on to the Brexit trade debacle.

Do I feel sorry for the fishing industry? no not in the slightest, same as I won't for the agriculture industry when they realise the consequences of their voting leave. They will reap what they sowed.
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Old 18th Jan 2021, 13:05
  #8775 (permalink)  
 
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The fish may be happier. The fishermen arenít.

Brexit: Fishing firms hold London protest over disruption
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-55706114
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Old 18th Jan 2021, 14:44
  #8776 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by back to Boeing View Post
The fish may be happier. The fishermen arenít.

Brexit: Fishing firms hold London protest over disruption
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-55706114
Looks like the SNP will be counting a few extra votes.


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Old 18th Jan 2021, 15:39
  #8777 (permalink)  
 
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I don't think I've ever been so confused. Weren't fishermen were meant to benefit from Brexit?
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Old 18th Jan 2021, 15:47
  #8778 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by ATNotts View Post
I fully expect some contributors to say that rejecting a shipment because it is labelled "UK" rather than "GB" but I'm afraid that the country code for the United Kingdom is GB, the shipper and their agent should have known that.
Ironically, that doesn't actually seem to be the case any longer - GB as a country code now only covers Great Britain (i.e. the UK less Northern Ireland). The latter has now become XI in EU-speak because of its unique status.
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Old 19th Jan 2021, 05:53
  #8779 (permalink)  
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Given the circumstances, and she does, strangely, have some detractors on here, it will be difficult for some on JB to resort to their favourite "champagne socialist " condemnation because the examples quoted, including some from the Telegraph and Tory MP's, are those which are well documented.....and with more to come.

Brexiters are waking up to the damage they've done | Brexit | The Guardian
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Old 19th Jan 2021, 06:20
  #8780 (permalink)  
 
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What did anyone expect from a process directed by political dogma and founded on outright lies?
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