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BREXIT

Old 14th Jan 2021, 21:22
  #8701 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by ORAC View Post
In both Scotland and England I believe it is a paperwork problem - either not knowing or getting the assistance to prepare that required - or insurance fees that incorrect paperwork on a combined load will leave one shipper responsible for the loss of the entire load.

I believe, from reports, the government is providing assistance, considering grants and/or short term compensation whilst the issues are resolved, and working to ensure longer term solutions.

I’ll wait, as with all theses stories, till things have been running for a couple of months to see where the true problems lie - and I accept there will be some.
Watch more 4 and get the story from the people in question. The Fishermen. The whole way they have to work has been completely changed. Channel 4 News with actual people talking their plight. No journalist changing the truth. There is only one problem. Actually there will be loads of problems that will not go away. But that was project fear.
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Old 15th Jan 2021, 04:50
  #8702 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by ORAC View Post
In both Scotland and England I believe it is a paperwork problem - either not knowing or getting the assistance to prepare that required - or insurance fees that incorrect paperwork on a combined load will leave one shipper responsible for the loss of the entire load.

I believe, from reports, the government is providing assistance, considering grants and/or short term compensation whilst the issues are resolved, and working to ensure longer term solutions.

I’ll wait, as with all theses stories, till things have been running for a couple of months to see where the true problems lie - and I accept there will be some.
ORAC, there's no need to wait for a couple of months to see where the true problem lies as this report offering the views of those involved in the Scottish fishing industry illustrates.....C4 have also been covering hauliers in N I, strangely encountering similar problems.

Thankfully, J R-M was on hand to add his own waggish quip, the only problem being, with him, he's just as likely to be serious.

Scottish fishermen ‘struggling to cope’ with Brexit red tape – Channel 4 News


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Old 15th Jan 2021, 06:40
  #8703 (permalink)  
 
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Clearly J R-M is a tw*t, but that report just falls back on "red tape" and "bureaucracy" and doesn't tell us any more.

I'd be interested to know how much of that is new i.e just down to the agreement, or is it the EU rules for third countries which have been there for years which we haven't adequately prepared for.
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Old 15th Jan 2021, 06:55
  #8704 (permalink)  
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Well the Irish seem to blaming the businesses for failing to prepare - whilst the companies blame the customs systems....

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/...ecks-1.4454808

....”The State agency has defended its new customs procedures and said that problems have arisen because businesses failed to heed its warnings for more than two years to prepare for Brexit.”....

https://www.dublinlive.ie/news/dubli...stuck-19595751

....
He added that he would have liked to have seen a transition period for hauliers given how late the Brexit deal was finalised.

”If they'd given it a three month period where you had to submit your paperwork but they weren't gung ho about it, at least there would have been some sort of transition period instead of just turning around after Christmas Eve and then telling everybody this was the system from January 1.

"They should have run it for another three months. They're having the same problems in France. Calais is full of stuff."
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Old 15th Jan 2021, 07:34
  #8705 (permalink)  
 
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Tory promise not to downgrade workers' rights after Brexit lasted for about ... two weeks.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-55656593
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Old 15th Jan 2021, 08:16
  #8706 (permalink)  
 
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During Johnson's appearance before the Liaison Committee earlier this week, he was asked about the disruption to food supplies to N. Ireland. His response was to sit there, straight faced and told us how everything was tickety-boo and nothing untoward is happening. He said the Irish Sea ferries were busy, busy, busy. This was a day after the news told us how the ferry operators were changing their schedules to reflect the sudden downturn in traffic across the water. And on the same day that Stena announced their latest ferry, Stena Embla, would no longer be serving the Liverpool/Belfast service. The ferry was delivered to Belfast on 2nd January and Stena made much of how it would be used on the Liverpool route. On 13th January they announced a change of plan; it would now be used between Rosslare and Cherbourg. Was the traffic between Belfast and Liverpool so overwhelming that they thought the Rosslare option might be better? No. I didn't think so either.

On the same day, there was a news item re a Scottish firm's failed attempt to export their usual/regular shipment of (I think) langoustines (why can't they just say 'prawns'?) to France. The shipment arrived but was held at the quay side while customs procedures were undergone. 5 days later, the customs paperwork was declared in order. Sadly, it was only the paperwork that was in order. The prawns had long since passed their sell by date and the entire load was written off, costing the exporter something like £25,000.

During the Liaison Committee's proceedings, I looked in vain to see if there was smoke emanating from Johnson's trousers. Alas, none was to be seen showing that either Johnson wears fire proof kecks or there is no substance to the "Liar! Liar! Your pants on fire" chant so beloved of school children everywhere.
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Old 15th Jan 2021, 08:28
  #8707 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Big_D View Post
Tory promise not to downgrade workers' rights after Brexit lasted for about ... two weeks.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-55656593
"Never believe anything until it's been officially denied "
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Old 15th Jan 2021, 08:43
  #8708 (permalink)  
 
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Kelvin, if the paperwork was in order why did it take them 5 days to clear it? Were they just being awkward?
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Old 15th Jan 2021, 08:53
  #8709 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by SWBKCB View Post
Clearly J R-M is a tw*t, but that report just falls back on "red tape" and "bureaucracy" and doesn't tell us any more.

I'd be interested to know how much of that is new i.e just down to the agreement, or is it the EU rules for third countries which have been there for years which we haven't adequately prepared for.
OK...... enter Scottish Fishing Brexit .....make sure you have adequate refreshment available, and see what comes up. You will note the reports come from multiple sources and political allegiances but, strangely enough, all refer to the same problem.......

Here's Steve Bells offering.....

Steve Bell on teething problems for fisheries post-Brexit – cartoon | Opinion | The Guardian


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Old 15th Jan 2021, 09:14
  #8710 (permalink)  
 
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My understanding is that the rules for importing into the EU from third countries are long established and well known. So, it what's causing the problems. Is it:

1. Exporters are under-prepared, haven't read the rules and have been taken in by the noise of "no tariffs, no barriers" (which doesn't really mean that, it means there are no additional one's other than the one's that already exist). I find it difficult to believe that a consignment where everything was in order took 5 days to clear
2. Does everybody know what the rules are, the trade is totally well prepared but it is the "official side" letting it down - nobody to certify export certs, inadequate IT, difficult comms between UK and France
3. The agreement has introduced totally new requirements which nobody was expecting and are unprepared for.

From what I've seen the problem seems to be mainly 1, with a bit of 2. If so should be sortable (doesn't the Emirates from GLA carry loads of seafood, can't believe the UAE is an easy place to export to) and a lot better than having full tariffs (and no, nowhere hear as good as 'frictionless trade').



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Old 15th Jan 2021, 09:53
  #8711 (permalink)  
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Kelvin, if the paperwork was in order why did it take them 5 days to clear it? Were they just being awkward?
There does appear to be a lot of deliberate obstructionism. As many deliberate slowdowns have shown, applying the letter of any rule book in full will cause any system to grind to a halt.

Other examples in the press today are Scottish fishermen reporting loads being rejected because forms were filled in with the wrong coloured ink and others because the electronic forms downloaded had been printed out with the wrong page numbering format.

For all the problems being reported shipping from the mainland to NI, if you read the reports in the Irish papers I included above you will find the Irish shippers have switched to using the ferries from Scotland to NI and driving south because of the problems they are facing with Customs in Dublin.

Whether tha5 is deliberate policy or individuals acting on their own is open to question. - as with the detailed search which revealed and lead to the confiscation of a drivers sandwiches....

Last edited by ORAC; 15th Jan 2021 at 10:10.
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Old 15th Jan 2021, 09:56
  #8712 (permalink)  
 
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ORAC, it's simple. We are no longer a member of the Single Market. No longer in the club, can't use the facilities.
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Old 15th Jan 2021, 10:06
  #8713 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by SWBKCB View Post
Clearly J R-M is a tw*t, but that report just falls back on "red tape" and "bureaucracy" and doesn't tell us any more.

I'd be interested to know how much of that is new i.e just down to the agreement, or is it the EU rules for third countries which have been there for years which we haven't adequately prepared for.
That's irrelevant, though, isn't it: as a member of the EU there was no import/export paperwork or bureaucracy to speak of. The fannying around between which, if any, deal we'd end up with meant no-one could adequately prepare for it: they're not all the same, hence all the "Canada/Australia/Norway/no deal" debate. The "paperwork" isn't a sheet of A4, it's legalise which needs to be acted on, before the truck leaves the depot. Leaving it to the night before the changeover date to sign off was an incredible display of arrogant incompetence.
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Old 15th Jan 2021, 10:19
  #8714 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by alfaman View Post
That's irrelevant, though, isn't it: as a member of the EU there was no import/export paperwork or bureaucracy to speak of. The fannying around between which, if any, deal we'd end up with meant no-one could adequately prepare for it: they're not all the same, hence all the "Canada/Australia/Norway/no deal" debate. The "paperwork" isn't a sheet of A4, it's legalise which needs to be acted on, before the truck leaves the depot. Leaving it to the night before the changeover date to sign off was an incredible display of arrogant incompetence.
I'm sorry that's wrong - these aren't new arrangements that have been agreed as part of the deal. It's what we had to do before the single market/Customs Union. Once we decided we wanted to leave and didn't want to be part of the single market/Customs union, shouldn't have been a surprise to anybody.
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Old 15th Jan 2021, 10:44
  #8715 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by ORAC View Post
There does appear to be a lot of deliberate obstructionism. As many deliberate slowdowns have shown, applying the letter of any rule book in full will cause any system to grind to a halt.

Other examples in the press today are Scottish fishermen reporting loads being rejected because forms were filled in with the wrong coloured ink and others because the electronic forms downloaded had been printed out with the wrong page numbering format.

For all the problems being reported shipping from the mainland to NI, if you read the reports in the Irish papers I included above you will find the Irish shippers have switched to using the ferries from Scotland to NI and driving south because of the problems they are facing with Customs in Dublin.

Whether tha5 is deliberate policy or individuals acting on their own is open to question. - as with the detailed search which revealed and lead to the confiscation of a drivers sandwiches....

I suppose in the 1970's we would have called that 'working to rule' which soon brought chaos to business..
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Old 15th Jan 2021, 10:51
  #8716 (permalink)  
 
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ORAC you inexplicably missed quoting the Fishermen's Organisation letter to the Prime Minister, reported in the Times today. It includes gems such as:

“It is not that, in the end, you were forced to concede in the face of an intransigent and powerful opponent that has caused such fury across our industry, it is that you have tried to present the agreement as a major success when it is patently clear that it is not.”

“We failed in this agreement to break out of that grip, and it would be much better if you, with humility and honesty, conceded that you tried but failed — rather than implying that you had handed us the keys of our liberation, when you have not.”


Boris acting "with humility and honesty" ? .
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Old 15th Jan 2021, 12:02
  #8717 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by SWBKCB View Post
I'm sorry that's wrong - these aren't new arrangements that have been agreed as part of the deal. It's what we had to do before the single market/Customs Union. Once we decided we wanted to leave and didn't want to be part of the single market/Customs union, shouldn't have been a surprise to anybody.
You're having a laugh, surely? The UK joined the single market in 1992, do you really think anyone can recall that far back & more importantly understand the different processes involved? Very little was computerised back then, for starters. You've had a good look at this "paperwork" have you? Care to share a link to both?
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Old 15th Jan 2021, 12:24
  #8718 (permalink)  
 
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The fannying around between which, if any, deal we'd end up with meant no-one could adequately prepare for it:
Don't agree - for most of last year (since the Theresa May deal got dropped) it looked likely that we would leave on WTO terms, so less favourable than what we got. Those terms were known - prepare for the worst, hope for the best.

they're not all the same, hence all the "Canada/Australia/Norway/no deal" debate. The "paperwork" isn't a sheet of A4, it's legalise which needs to be acted on, before the truck leaves the depot. Leaving it to the night before the changeover date to sign off was an incredible display of arrogant incompetence.
As above - the processes weren't decided in December, they'd been known for a while (for mainland Europe, Northern Ireland is a different case)
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Old 15th Jan 2021, 12:39
  #8719 (permalink)  
 
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SWBKCB

You say that Jacob Rees-Mogg is a [email protected] I would disagree: at least one can understand what he says or writes, which does not apply to some who post here.
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Old 15th Jan 2021, 12:43
  #8720 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by SWBKCB View Post
Don't agree - for most of last year (since the Theresa May deal got dropped) it looked likely that we would leave on WTO terms, so less favourable than what we got. Those terms were known - prepare for the worst, hope for the best.



As above - the processes weren't decided in December, they'd been known for a while (for mainland Europe, Northern Ireland is a different case)
Not true: Boris & his cohort consistently pedaled the view that a deal was in the offing, & that No deal/WTO was unlikely. The threat to leave with no deal (some threat, as it turned out) only rose in the autumn, three months to go. If the actuality of the deal is not clear, which of the options available does a company prepare for? All of them? As it is, we don't have any of them, anyway, we have a mongrel of bits of all of them, it seems. How does a business prepare it's IT systems for that?How do they access them without the appropriate authority? Or train & prepare it's staff? And still waiting for a link to those 1992 forms...
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