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BREXIT

Old 9th Dec 2020, 12:28
  #7541 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by ORAC View Post
Doubtless the purchase came with substantial subsidies and tax breaks from the French government unreported or released to the media.....
Citation please ORAC referencing this unreported support, or are does your "doubtless" actually translate into "I'm guessing"/"I"m trying to be controversial"/"I'll post anything to blame the French for a Brexiter moving business out of the UK"?
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Old 9th Dec 2020, 12:42
  #7542 (permalink)  
 
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The additional issue, unmentioned in the article below, is where the EU may use standards as a tool to influence markets to the benefit of the EU at the expense of the UK without the UK having any say in the rule making.
Look, it's perfectly simple. The UK would like a trade deal that gives it s unfettered access as possible to the EU single market. That market has rules that the UK will need to comply with. As we're outside the EU, and have decided not to pay a "subscription" to me a member of the club then we are bound by the rules of that club, and if we want to sell the same products (physical or commercial) to those club members we have to agree to the rules, whilst not actually having a say in writing them. It's a consequence of leaving the club.

If I want to play at a tennis club as a guest, and I roll up to find that the committee has decreed that all balls must in future be yellow with green spots, then if I want to use it's facilities I have to get my own yellow, green spotted balls else I can't play.

This is fundamentally why, from a trade point of view leaving the EU was total, absolute lunacy; but of course people weren't interested in trade, jobs, the economy etc, it was just so we could "take back control" of our laws, currency and borders. I think people will probably start to question the priorities they chose for voting leave in 2016, but it's too late now. They have made their beds, and along with the rest of us, will have to sleep in them.
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Old 9th Dec 2020, 12:42
  #7543 (permalink)  
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Wiggy, call me cynical if you will....https://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/...s-UK-hold.html

Ineos bosses insisted they were not trying to exploit a grants merry-go-round by playing off one country against another, as other manufacturers have appeared to do in the past, but were looking to switch for purely commercial reasons. ‘Grants are not the main issue. We are not playing games in terms of who can give us most support,' Tennant explained......

Former Nissan chief Carlos Ghosn used the grants ‘merry go round’ tactic to great effect when negotiating state help for Sunderland, frequently threatening to shift production or deny a new model unless extra help were forthcoming.

State and grant aid for members of the European Union has to comply with strict competition rules to avoid member states unfairly bumping up inducements to companies to set up within their borders. However, the rules can be deftly side-stepped with aid for roads and new infrasturucture which are not as tightly regulated.

With the UK leaving the EU formally at the end of the year, it is unlikely it would be bound by such rules, subject to any deal being negotiated or not......
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Old 9th Dec 2020, 12:54
  #7544 (permalink)  
 
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State and grant aid for members of the European Union has to comply with strict competition rules to avoid member states unfairly bumping up inducements to companies to set up within their borders. However, the rules can be deftly side-stepped with aid for roads and new infrasturucture which are not as tightly regulated.
That being the case, why won't the UK just bloody well sign up to them, if they are so simple to circumvent????????
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Old 9th Dec 2020, 13:05
  #7545 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by ORAC View Post
Ineos bosses insisted they were not trying to exploit a grants merry-go-round by playing off one country against another, as other manufacturers have appeared to do in the past, but were looking to switch for purely commercial reasons. ‘Grants are not the main issue. We are not playing games in terms of who can give us most support,' Tennant explained......
Well done, ORAC.
You have immediately contradicted your last post where you suggested that this was due to French subsidies.

And Ineos have confirmed that the business will be commercially better off in the EU than in the UK.

Even the most ardent Brexiteers are realising they were better off in the EU.
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Old 9th Dec 2020, 13:24
  #7546 (permalink)  
 
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Even the most ardent Brexiteers are realising they were better off in the EU.
But it was never about being better, or worse off economically, it was of course about
it was just so we could "take back control" of our laws, currency and borders
!!!!!

The most ardent of Brexiteers won't be adversely affected by Brexit, so they could afford to be dogmatic.
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Old 9th Dec 2020, 15:02
  #7547 (permalink)  
 
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What's the betting that de Pfeffel returns from Brussels flourishing a piece of paper and crowing "Brexit for our time" ? He certainly aspired to going down in history as a retread of a famous twentieth century PM. Just not that one.
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Old 9th Dec 2020, 15:26
  #7548 (permalink)  
 
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Even the most ardent Brexiteers are realising they were better off in the EU.
Oh no we're not, ............................................................ ............tis the season to be jolly.
(pinched some of knc's ellipses there, hope he's got enough to spare)
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Old 9th Dec 2020, 16:51
  #7549 (permalink)  
 
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Look, it's perfectly simple. The UK would like a trade deal that gives it s unfettered access as possible to the EU single market. That market has rules that the UK will need to comply with. As we're outside the EU, and have decided not to pay a "subscription" to me a member of the club then we are bound by the rules of that club, and if we want to sell the same products (physical or commercial) to those club members we have to agree to the rules, whilst not actually having a say in writing them. It's a consequence of leaving the club.
Partly correct, if we want to sell goods to the EU then of course we have to make them to their standards. However we do not have to apply those standards to goods for our own use or for export to other countries that have different standards. So the point is the EU should have no say at all in what our standards are just as it has no say in what standards the Japanese or Canadians apply to goods not for sale in the EU
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Old 9th Dec 2020, 17:04
  #7550 (permalink)  
 
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Danny G
So UK companies are going to make at their costs, merchandise for UK and then separate ones for the EU and other places. I can not see that being economic on everything. They will choose one which covers all three, unless it is something like right hand / left hand drive cars, but that may not be an issue soon with the way the UK Car manufacturing is going. Given that, what chance do you think that the standard they work to will be the EU, one which is excepted by the rest of the world, or the home grown UK one thought up by Bojo and friends, which may get changed depending on who is bending the Boris ear next week ?

EM
Peace in our time Declaration, or a Sexual conduct complaint from Ursula. Both seem unerringly possible given Bojo,s previous achievements.

Kind regards
Mr Mac
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Old 9th Dec 2020, 17:28
  #7551 (permalink)  
 
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Danny G
So UK companies are going to make at their costs, merchandise for UK and then separate ones for the EU and other places. I can not see that being economic on everything. They will choose one which covers all three, unless it is something like right hand / left hand drive cars, but that may not be an issue soon with the way the UK Car manufacturing is going. Given that, what chance do you think that the standard they work to will be the EU, one which is excepted by the rest of the world, or the home grown UK one thought up by Bojo and friends, which may get changed depending on who is bending the Boris ear next week ?
Can you tell me what percentage of UK companies actually export anything to the EU? What happens if the UK want to have tougher laws around products in their domestic market on food for instance? Do you believe we should have to comply with EU rules while having no say in their making? We already export goods to other markets such as the USA (they are currently our largest export market country wise and also a larger potential market than the EU) whos standards are different from the EU so its no issue manufacturing for export to the EU.
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Old 9th Dec 2020, 17:56
  #7552 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by denachtenmai View Post
Oh no we're not, ............................................................ ............tis the season to be jolly.
(pinched some of knc's ellipses there, hope he's got enough to spare)
.........................................actually, I have. .................but. I'm sure your festive cheer will be shared by those recently unemployed and waiting, with relish, to visit their local food bank.

I see dinner is set to start at 19.00, presumably the menu will be cold dishes as the courses stand a good chance of going cold anyway....although Ursula may enjoy dining on the "oven ready " turkey sat opposite her.
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Old 9th Dec 2020, 18:26
  #7553 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Danny G View Post
Partly correct, if we want to sell goods to the EU then of course we have to make them to their standards. However we do not have to apply those standards to goods for our own use or for export to other countries that have different standards. So the point is the EU should have no say at all in what our standards are just as it has no say in what standards the Japanese or Canadians apply to goods not for sale in the EU

Actually it is fully correct. As he was only talking about a trade deal with the EU and not deal between the U.K. and other countries. Your first sentence is correct. Your remaining paragraph had nothing to do with what he posted.
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Old 9th Dec 2020, 18:33
  #7554 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Danny G View Post
Can you tell me what percentage of UK companies actually export anything to the EU? What happens if the UK want to have tougher laws around products in their domestic market on food for instance? Do you believe we should have to comply with EU rules while having no say in their making? We already export goods to other markets such as the USA (they are currently our largest export market country wise and also a larger potential market than the EU) whos standards are different from the EU so its no issue manufacturing for export to the EU.
Danny G
23.4% Of UK business traded into the EU worth £294.2 billion in 2019 latest figures. US sales for UK companies £63.2 billion in 2019. If you have tougher laws on food as your example I would not foresee there being an issue. The issue is a lessening of standard / less legislation which concerns the EU. I do not think it can be made any clearer as has been noted by many others, the UK left the club but still wants to trade in the EU BUT YOU HAVE TO ABIDE BY THE CLUB RULES TO DO THAT. If the EU says every UK product must come with a free duster then dusters you must find in order to sell your products. If not, you can not sell the products, and you have to take your products elsewhere, simples. We left , It’s their train set AND you can now only watch the trains go around to keep on the Festive theme.
As for US trade I already work their and guess what they except EU rules on our products and services. Not sure about back of a fag packet ones which will be rushed through in the UK which if the aerospace deal is anything to go by will be something along the lines of what do you want USA ?, Scotland not a problem.

Cheers
Mr Mac
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Old 9th Dec 2020, 18:42
  #7555 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Danny G View Post
Can you tell me what percentage of UK companies actually export anything to the EU? What happens if the UK want to have tougher laws around products in their domestic market on food for instance? Do you believe we should have to comply with EU rules while having no say in their making? We already export goods to other markets such as the USA (they are currently our largest export market country wise and also a larger potential market than the EU) whos standards are different from the EU so its no issue manufacturing for export to the EU.
Any company that doesn’t export can make their product anyway they see fit (within our own rules of course). If they do export they are going to have to weigh up the costs of domestic market versus overseas market and produce their product accordingly.

We were never not allowed to have tougher laws than the EU had so that is a non starter.

If you want to export to a country then yes you have to abide by their rules while having no say in their making. Just like other countries do or will do in trading with us, and just like we do in our trading to the US. We abide by their rules for what we ship to them and vice versa.


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Old 9th Dec 2020, 18:55
  #7556 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by TURIN View Post
One of which is the very fact that those who knowingly caused this mess still refuse to admit the utter devastation they have caused.
Yes, I do mean you and the rest of the fools that voted to leave.
Being addressed as a fool is discourteous but, sadly, such boorishness has become increasingly characteristic of Jet Blast intercourse in recent years and is best ignored.
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Old 9th Dec 2020, 18:56
  #7557 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Gipsy Queen View Post
Being addressed as a fool is discourteous but, sadly, such boorishness has become increasingly characteristic of Jet Blast intercourse in recent years and is best ignored.
Yet you chose to respond to and not ignore it?
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Old 9th Dec 2020, 19:04
  #7558 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by highflyer40 View Post
Yet you chose to respond to and not ignore it?
It did occur to me that you might learn something from my response, but evidently not. No matter.
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Old 9th Dec 2020, 19:09
  #7559 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Gipsy Queen View Post
Being addressed as a fool is discourteous but, sadly, such boorishness has become increasingly characteristic of Jet Blast intercourse in recent years and is best ignored.
GIpsy Queen
I have not called anybody a fool. As for boorishness I think you need to look at some of the previous Brexiteers posts, of which the first probably set the theme. I think you have been lied to re Brexit, and perhaps have been too quick to follow a flag rather than look who is waving it, and ask why. However that is all done, and following tonight’s meal many of your countrymen will have to workout the cost of the reckoning to themselves, and indeed their families over the coming years.

Cheers
Mr Mac
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Old 9th Dec 2020, 19:23
  #7560 (permalink)  
 
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Danny G
23.4% Of UK business traded into the EU worth £294.2 billion in 2019 latest figures. US sales for UK companies £63.2 billion in 2019. If you have tougher laws on food as your example I would not foresee there being an issue. The issue is a lessening of standard / less legislation which concerns the EU. I do not think it can be made any clearer as has been noted by many others, the UK left the club but still wants to trade in the EU BUT YOU HAVE TO ABIDE BY THE CLUB RULES TO DO THAT. If the EU says every UK product must come with a free duster then dusters you must find in order to sell your products. If not, you can not sell the products, and you have to take your products elsewhere, simples. We left , It’s their train set AND you can now only watch the trains go around to keep on the Festive theme.
As for US trade I already work their and guess what they except EU rules on our products and services. Not sure about back of a fag packet ones which will be rushed through in the UK which if the aerospace deal is anything to go by will be something along the lines of what do you want USA ?, Scotland not a problem.
I asked what percentage of companies exported to the EU not percentage of business. I think from memory its 1% of companies who export goods to the EU meaning the 99% who dont still have to comply with every EU directive even though none of thier goods go there. The issue that the EU is insisting on is that if they change thier regulations then the UK has to follow suit or suffer tarriffs. Many countries have not been in the "club" but still have trade deals. Canada, Japan to name but two and they do not abide by the club rules in their own markets. There is no issue with supplying dusters with a product to be sold in the EU but the EU is also insisting that the UK supplies dusters to the domestic market even though we are no longer part of the "club"

So it really is simple, any prodicts going into the EU are supplied to their regulations just as any products supplied to other countries are supplied to theirs.

So you know that if the USA insists on a particular specification the UK ensures the goods it supplies into their market meet that spec. It does not mean the UK also has to adopt that spec in its own market on pain of tarriffs and to adopt any new regulations into its own market without being able to influence them.

Last edited by Danny G; 9th Dec 2020 at 19:33.
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