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BREXIT

Old 26th Nov 2020, 17:34
  #7161 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Arthur Bellcrank View Post
Nonsense like this indicates why Remain lost the referendum, they simply could not articulate reasons why we should carry on paying 13 Billion quid a year to Germany in order that they could sell us their cars.
There was no reason on earth that right minded people would have wished for that to continue, and so they didn't.
This is the sort of nonsense that Farage and his ilk used to trot out every other night on Question Time and the nightly news.

People actually believed him and still use it to justify the mess we are in now.
If you really think that 13B was paid to Germany to sell us their cars you are seriously deluded.
48% (at least) were right minded enough to see through the lies, sadly others were suckered in by the rhetoric.
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Old 26th Nov 2020, 18:09
  #7162 (permalink)  
dns
 
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Originally Posted by rogerg View Post
[
It seems like the opposite to me.
Yeah, that's what I was thinking... It's proof that we can happily work with our neighbours without being in the EU.

​​​​​
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Old 26th Nov 2020, 18:33
  #7163 (permalink)  
 
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AB, Have you read this?
https://www.psychologytoday.com/au/b...trumps-support
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Old 26th Nov 2020, 20:02
  #7164 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by TURIN View Post
This is the sort of nonsense that Farage and his ilk used to trot out every other night on Question Time and the nightly news.

People actually believed him and still use it to justify the mess we are in now.
If you really think that 13B was paid to Germany to sell us their cars you are seriously deluded.
48% (at least) were right minded enough to see through the lies, sadly others were suckered in by the rhetoric.
Hi TURIN,
AFAIK, it is indeed nonsense, and I'd be astonished if it had been peddled by Farage during the referendum campaign. If by anyone, that would more likely have been Cummings, Boris and Co., whose simplistic, disingenuous claim on the Vote Leave battle bus caused considerable embarrassment to those of us campaigning with UKIP and Grassroots Out.

Once the Electoral Commission had selected Vote Leave as the official representative of the Leave campaign in preference to Grassroots Out, "Farage and his ilk" were given limited coverage on the broadcast media.

As for the 48% "right-minded enough to see through the lies", don't forget that the Cameron government spent taxpayers' money sending a pro-Remain communication by Royal Mail to every household in the country. Meanwhile, foot-soldiers like myself were delivering papers at the expense of our own time, money and shoe leather. On the day the government 18-page pamphlet was being delivered by posties in my borough, I was able to tell several householders "this is one you're not having to pay for," as I handed them two comparatively modest leaflets.

As for the broadcast media, there is little doubt that they found ways of making it perfectly clear to their audiences which side they were all on, as they have continued to do - with one notable exception on radio - in the four-and-a-half years since the Leave campaign won.
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Old 27th Nov 2020, 08:37
  #7165 (permalink)  
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https://www.pressgazette.co.uk/carol...blic-interest/

Carole Cadwalladr drops truth defence in Arron Banks libel battle but insists claims were in public interest

Carole Cadwalladr has insisted she will continue to defend her reporting against a libel case brought by prominent Brexiteer Arron Banks despite withdrawing the defence of truth.

Cadwalladr has been ordered to pay 62,000 in costs to Banks after withdrawing her defences of truth and limitation just one day before the next hearing in the case was scheduled to take place on Thursday morning.

Press Gazette understands the total costs are likely to exceed 100,000 after a case and cost management hearing to be held early next year......


The Guardian Media Group is not covering Cadwalladr’s costs to defend the case but she has raised more than 168,000 towards her legal costs from more than 5,000 members of the public......

In an earlier crowdfunding page she raised more than 300,000 from more than 10,000 people which she ringfenced for Banks’ legal costs to use if she lost the case.

Cadwalladr was earlier this month separately forced to
apologise to Banks after wrongly claiming he “had been found to have broken the law” in his role as founder of the Leave.EU campaign in a now-deleted tweet.

https://order-order.com/2020/11/26/e...y-banks-costs/

https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/...r-orwell-prize

Carole Cadwalladr should now return her Orwell Prize

Last edited by ORAC; 27th Nov 2020 at 09:44.
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Old 27th Nov 2020, 09:06
  #7166 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by dns View Post
Yeah, that's what I was thinking... It's proof that we can happily work with our neighbours without being in the EU.

​​​​​

Sorry guys, my attempted sarcasm seems to have missed the mark.
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Old 27th Nov 2020, 11:36
  #7167 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by golfbananajam View Post
Sorry guys, my attempted sarcasm seems to have missed the mark.
Must admit to being confused on the point you are making, GBjam.

But in case there's any misunderstanding, can I point out that non-membership of the EU and European co-operation are not mutually exclusive? For example, both Concorde and the Airbus A300B were airborne before the UK joined the EEC.
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Old 27th Nov 2020, 12:41
  #7168 (permalink)  
 
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Concorde and the Airbus A300B were airborne before the UK joined the EEC.

... and you will have read, no doubt, like me, the contemporaneous, fully politically involved accounts of those years, as recorded by Tony Benn. While his political leanings may be suspect, due to his well-founded distrust of the British Press, his recorded notes were near impeccable.
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Old 27th Nov 2020, 13:09
  #7169 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by golfbananajam View Post
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/w...ect-royal-navy (dated 26th Nov 2020)

The UK and France reaffirmed their long-standing defence relationship today by committing to a joint programme for Autonomous Minehunting Systems that will detect and neutralise mines around the world.

i'll believe it when they actually buy something British........
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Old 27th Nov 2020, 13:26
  #7170 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Chris Scott View Post
Hi TURIN,
AFAIK, it is indeed nonsense, and I'd be astonished if it had been peddled by Farage during the referendum campaign. If by anyone, that would more likely have been Cummings, Boris and Co., whose simplistic, disingenuous claim on the Vote Leave battle bus caused considerable embarrassment to those of us campaigning with UKIP and Grassroots Out.

Once the Electoral Commission had selected Vote Leave as the official representative of the Leave campaign in preference to Grassroots Out, "Farage and his ilk" were given limited coverage on the broadcast media.

As for the 48% "right-minded enough to see through the lies", don't forget that the Cameron government spent taxpayers' money sending a pro-Remain communication by Royal Mail to every household in the country. Meanwhile, foot-soldiers like myself were delivering papers at the expense of our own time, money and shoe leather. On the day the government 18-page pamphlet was being delivered by posties in my borough, I was able to tell several householders "this is one you're not having to pay for," as I handed them two comparatively modest leaflets.

As for the broadcast media, there is little doubt that they found ways of making it perfectly clear to their audiences which side they were all on, as they have continued to do - with one notable exception on radio - in the four-and-a-half years since the Leave campaign won.
I remember one of those 'foot soldiers' accosting me on my drive while i was tinkering with the car. After a brief but pleasant exchange, where I stated my, at the time neutrality on the subject, he began to discuss immigration and 'all the foreigners' coming over here and claiming benefits etc. It became very obvious that he was a raving bigot and his sole purpose was to 'send the buggers back'. I almost threw him off my property. Tore his damn leaflets up and sent him away with a flee in his ear. Now, I am not saying you are of similar persuassion, but his attitude was enough to convince me to vote remain. I have no regerts as they say.

As for the broadcast media, as I have stated before, the extreme views of the great British public means that the broadcast media will appear biased to both ends of the political spectrum. it is, in the main, neutral, or at least balanced. The extreme left and the extreme right always view the centre as opposing their view. it is the same with Brexit, It is not the media that is biased.
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Old 27th Nov 2020, 14:22
  #7171 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by TURIN View Post
I remember one of those 'foot soldiers' accosting me on my drive while i was tinkering with the car. After a brief but pleasant exchange, where I stated my, at the time neutrality on the subject, he began to discuss immigration and 'all the foreigners' coming over here and claiming benefits etc. It became very obvious that he was a raving bigot and his sole purpose was to 'send the buggers back'. I almost threw him off my property. Tore his damn leaflets up and sent him away with a flee in his ear. Now, I am not saying you are of similar persuassion, but his attitude was enough to convince me to vote remain. I have no regerts as they say.

As for the broadcast media, as I have stated before, the extreme views of the great British public means that the broadcast media will appear biased to both ends of the political spectrum. it is, in the main, neutral, or at least balanced. The extreme left and the extreme right always view the centre as opposing their view. it is the same with Brexit, It is not the media that is biased.
Well, thanks for giving me the benefit of the doubt on perceived bigotry, TURIN. No doubt there are "bigots" on both sides of the argument, as in so many issues in politics or life in general. But, assuming your interlocutor wasn't actually "raving", as you put it, what's wrong with pointing out that EU rules have enabled some people to abandon their own countries and migrate here for economic reasons, and in some cases to take advantage of our welfare system?

Re the pro-Remain bias in the broadcast media, one blatant area is the anti-Brexit terminology adopted by political correspondents (whose reports should be neutral), such as "crashing out", "going off a cliff edge", etcetera. There have been no pro-Brexit or anti-Remain equivalents. Thus the listeners are slowly brainwashed. But even worse is that, since Mrs May (the reluctant Leaver) became PM, all statements by HMG on Brexit plans have been treated as having doubtful credibility, while those emanating from the EU are taken on face value and with unquestioning respect.

Finally, I'm not in the habit of emboldening and underlining large sections of my posts for added emphasis. There seems to be a habit of some people on this thread to quote the whole of a lengthy post and then discuss only part of it. That's fine by ne - it gives my post a second bite of the cherry! But kindly don't embellish any of its text for your own convenience, as you have done in this case, because a casual observer might assume it reflects my habitual writing style.
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Old 27th Nov 2020, 14:42
  #7172 (permalink)  
 
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Re the pro-Remain bias in the broadcast media, one blatant area is the anti-Brexit terminology adopted by political correspondents (whose reports should be neutral), such as "crashing out", "going off a cliff edge", etcetera. There have been no pro-Brexit or anti-Remain equivalents. Thus the listeners are slowly brainwashed. But even worse is that, since Mrs May (the reluctant Leaver) became PM, all statements by HMG on Brexit plans have been treated as having doubtful credibility, while those emanating from the EU are taken on face value and with unquestioning respect
The UK broadcast news media, with one notable exception are not biased in either direction, in fact the requirement for the BBC to be totally even handed leads to the sort of lunacy that requires them to air the opinions of the anti-climate change lobby with almost equal prominince as the established scientific view that man made climate change is happening. It's frankly amazing the BBC doesn't give air time to the Flat Earth Society on news bulletins!! The one exception to the unbiased broadcast media is radio station who's presenters are often clearly biased, and are seemingly permitted to voice their own prejudices on their programme.

As the same time as being unbiased the BBC at least also has a duty to fact check and make sure that viewers and listeners are aware of misinformation being pedalled by some guests or in press releases. The fact that BBC news does occasionally flag up inaccuracies in statements from more extreme pro Brexit supporters isn't bias, it's evidencing inaccuracies. the very fact the both Labour and The Tories frequently call out the BBC for alleged bias tends to prove that they are infact neutral.

Would you prefer a US type situation where the likes of Fox News, OAN and some would also say CNN could freely broadcast blatantly fake news (that is lies) unchallenged by a regulator? I for one wouldn't, even though I believe part of the reason the remain side lost the EU referendum was because falsehoods were allowed to go unchallenged in voxpops particularly on BBC News ahead of the referendum.
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Old 27th Nov 2020, 15:27
  #7173 (permalink)  
 
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Unfortunatly the BBC has just been voted as the least trustworthy of the 5 main news broadcasters
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Old 27th Nov 2020, 16:07
  #7174 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Danny G View Post
Unfortunatly the BBC has just been voted as the least trustworthy of the 5 main news broadcasters
By whom?

CG
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Old 27th Nov 2020, 16:27
  #7175 (permalink)  
 
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I think Danny was referring to this piece:
https://order-order.com/2020/11/26/o...ality-ratings/

I don't have the original survey, but the following quote is from page 7 of OFCOM's annual report into the BBC https://www.ofcom.org.uk/__data/asse...ual-report.pdf

"In an increasingly polarised political and cultural landscape, ensuring due impartiality in news and current affairs remains critical, and it is an area that many feel strongly about. During the year we did not find the BBC to have breached the due impartiality or due accuracy requirements of the Broadcasting Code. However, our BBC Performance Tracker shows that only 54% of adults perceive BBC news as being impartial."
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Old 27th Nov 2020, 16:47
  #7176 (permalink)  
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The broadcaster most of the public regard as being impartial is apparently Sky News.

Make of that what you will.....

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/202...h-broadcaster/

The BBC’s news output has the lowest-ranked impartiality score of any British broadcaster, according to a survey of viewers. The corporation has fallen below Channel 5 for the first time.

Ofcom asked audiences for each of the main channels whether they believed that the news programmes they watched were free of bias.

The BBC scored just 58 per cent. Sky News was the highest-rated with 69 per cent, followed by Channel 4 (66 per cent), ITV (63 per cent) and Channel 5 (61 per cent).

It is the first time in the annual survey that the BBC has fallen behind all the other broadcasters....
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Old 27th Nov 2020, 17:03
  #7177 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by ATNotts View Post
ORAC

What really sticks in the craw for remainers is that people voted on a largely false premise, and as a result of that we are, as you quite correctly say, out of the EU. Nothing that can be done about it. It wasn't just the Vote Leave campaign that misrepresented the facts (regarding sovereignty) but the press that should have been questioning, and serving it's readers by acting as journalists, instead chose to recycle the propaganda that came from their favoured side of the argument.
Presumably the same Remainers don't much concern themselves that the politicians voted for EC membership in 1972 on a largely false premise, with Ted Heath and his cohorts being fully aware that the EEC was to become the EU. Under Wilson in '75, the country voted on a largely false premise following a campaign that misrepresented the facts since the government guessed that the country would not countenance any degree of political union. The poor, duped voters, having stupidly supposed that the politicians had bothered to understand the Treaty of Rome and were acting in the country's best interests, were conned into thinking that they were subscribing only to the European Economic Community and not something which always as a raison d'etre was to become the bloated and authoritarian supranational European Union.

Perhaps what goes around really does come around.




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Old 27th Nov 2020, 18:03
  #7178 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Chris Scott;10934790

Then why not read it? Here's the relevant paragraph (my italics, my emphasis):
[i
"6. Following a decision of the Council falling under Chapter 2 of Title V TEU, the United Kingdom may make a formal declaration to the High Representative of the Union for Foreign Affairs and Security Policy, indicating that, for vital and stated reasons of national policy, in those exceptional cases it will not apply the decision. In a spirit of mutual solidarity, the United Kingdom shall refrain from any action likely to conflict with or impede Union action based on that decision, and the Member States shall respect the position of the United Kingdom."

It's just one of many commitments in Boris's Withdrawal Agreement that would deny us the independent nation-statehood enjoyed by other countries outside the EU, including Commonwealth countries from Antigua to Zimbabwe. That's why your assumption that Brexiteers will necessarily be "raising a glass of luke warm good old Blighty mild or bitter, or a drop of Gordon's perhaps, on 31st Dec at 2300 hrs" demonstrates that you haven't been paying attention to reservations expressed by Brexiteers since Boris announced his "oven-ready deal" last autumn. As previously noted, we fear a sell-out into the worst of all worlds: Brino. That would suit Remainer zealots, however, by enhancing any case for rejoining the EU.


How odd. Many admissions of loss of sovereignty; all simply dismissed as being offset by the supposed advantages of being in a big, important club.


I see sidevalve has now written of the distinction between patriotism and nationalism. Coming from me, it was intended as a compliment, not a wind-up. Each to his/her own. Since you dislike the term, can you tell me if you feel loyalty to the people of any road, town, county, region, country, or continent? Or simply mankind as a whole?

You say above: "...another side effect is that the philosophy can, and does / has and invariably always will, lead to war and carnage..." Perhaps, but in living memory it has also overcome aggression based on racial hegemony. So the jury is out on patriotism, I think. Loyalty is a part of human nature, even if it's only to a sports team. Human nature doesn't change - even the once-mighty Soviets failed to do it.
Slight delay as I said yesterday in responding. I was going to suggest it's never a good idea to go for a sequel after such a prestigious start, but then, subsequent to the above, came your next years entry for the award. See below, cut and pasted, no embellishments required.

Starting with this post, and the perpetual urban myth about sovereignty .....as I said, please name any of the remaining EU state who have renounced their sovereign status.

And yes, I did read sidevalves contribution, somewhat ironic I thought, however, patriotism and nationalism are inextricably linked for me, almost symbiotic you might say. .

And thus to.....
" TURIN,
AFAIK, it is indeed nonsense, and I'd be astonished if it had been peddled by Farage during the referendum campaign. If by anyone, that would more likely have been Cummings, Boris and Co., whose simplistic, disingenuous claim on the Vote Leave battle bus caused considerable embarrassment to those of us campaigning with UKIP and Grassroots Out.

Once the Electoral Commission had selected Vote Leave as the official representative of the Leave campaign in preference to Grassroots Out, "Farage and his ilk" were given limited coverage on the broadcast media.

As for the 48% "right-minded enough to see through the lies", don't forget that the Cameron government spent taxpayers' money sending a pro-Remain communication by Royal Mail to every household in the country. Meanwhile, foot-soldiers like myself were delivering papers at the expense of our own time, money and shoe leather. On the day the government 18-page pamphlet was being delivered by posties in my borough, I was able to tell several householders "this is one you're not having to pay for," as I handed them two comparatively modest leaflets.


As for the broadcast media, there is little doubt that they found ways of making it perfectly clear to their audiences which side they were all on, as they have continued to do - with one notable exception on radio - in the four-and-a-half years since the Leave campaign won."

Well first, lets congratulate you on admitting to being a member of UKIP......there was a frenzy on here a few years ago, admissions galore and lots of "UKIP the political future of the UK !! ".....that was then, but, thereafter came the implosion which came as no surprise once the damage was done, and the Divine Saviour left, although he did leave a few times and came back rapidly I recall.

UKiP.. I recall , came from "several marriages out of wedlock" as they say, but were astute enough to become the political wing of the BNP ( and predecessors ) by virtue of being literate and thus able to offer rhetoric to a carefully targeted voting demographic. However, they were equally fond of forming alliances with more right wing extremist parties and factions in Europe ..were these include in your pamphlet at all ?...possibly not.

You mentioned the media, albeit the broadcast media, but not the printed media......so here's a montage to remind you of the headlines that helped spread disinformation and lies to the voting public.....


tabloid newspaper brexit headlines photos - Google Search

Finally, you missed the METAR's out for the days spent wandering the streets.....the wx always adds a bit of pathos you understand.
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Old 27th Nov 2020, 18:22
  #7179 (permalink)  
 
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So Barnier has now made the big offer, we can have 15% of the fish in our own waters, how on earth can anyone put forward an argument that we should be better off staying in such a corrupt and bullying organisation as the EU.

I rather like Johnsons position that we keep 100% of our own fish, and if Biden doesn't like it then he might be better worrying about his own business, the longer this farce of negotiations progress the better we see what we are leaving.
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Old 27th Nov 2020, 18:31
  #7180 (permalink)  
 
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By whom?


OFFCOM in a study a couple of days ago SKY came top
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