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BREXIT

Old 21st Mar 2019, 16:56
  #41 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by gevans35 View Post
There is a UK Government and Parliament petition to "Revoke Article 50 and remain in the EU" which is gaining some traction.
Unfortunately for some, the opposing "Leave the EU immediately" petition achieved 17.4 million verified votes some time ago. One week to go until we leave.
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Old 21st Mar 2019, 17:18
  #42 (permalink)  
 
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MFC

Thats your reason, not mine. Our situations are very different. I do not pay Canadian taxes and never have.

BV
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Old 21st Mar 2019, 17:20
  #43 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Hussar 54 View Post
No taxation without representation and no representation without taxation.

To me makes sense and how it should be.

Not dependent on citizenship, residency, place of work, etc, but where you and to whom you pay your taxes because you should be able to have a say in how your taxes are spent and no part of the decision making process in a country where you don't pay tax.
Hm, as you can see in this thread, not all paying taxes have been allowe to vote.
And, using your logic, how about british people living in the UK and not paying taxes, for whatever reason, should they be allowed to vote?
What if somebody pays twice or a thousand times more tax than you, should his vote be worth twice or a thousand times your vote?

One man, one vote...

I am just curious, in germany this is part of our constitution, that if have german citizenship, you are allowed to vote (over 18, or whatever). And i think that it is a fair and proper way to do this...
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Old 21st Mar 2019, 17:22
  #44 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by strake View Post
Maybe I've misunderstood but I am resident in France (and pay taxes in UK as well) and I voted in the referendum much as I do in local and general elections by using a postal vote.
Alsacienne is correct.

I'm also in France, I pay UK income Tax and Full NI.....just today I just got my latest notification of Tax Code from HMRC, but because I have now been non resident in the UK for >15 years I'm now disenfrancised.

Got a vote (just) in the referendum in '16..no vote in the following GE..
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Old 21st Mar 2019, 19:12
  #45 (permalink)  
 
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Of course Brexiteers are stupid.
They voted in a referendum where the question was - do you want to leave the EU or remain. No ifs and and buts or only if we get what we consider a good deal, just do you want to leave or remain.
ALL major political parties said they would respect the result. Then due to their arrogance and their stupidity in not getting the Remain message over a majority of voters voted to leave but we are not going to as of course the "Intelligentsia" know much more than the common stupid brexiteer. It makes me wonder why we even bother to have universal suffrage. Surely the country would be better off if only intelligent people such as Remoaners and Gruniad readers can vote. These people also know how famous scientists such as Newton and Rutherford would vote as although these scientists were not born there they went to uni in Cambridge so they would have voted remain! Would love to know the reasoning behind that or are intelligent people able to converse with the dead? I have never read anything anywhere about Newton's political leanings or even if he was able to vote - I'm probably not intelligent enough.
Breaking News -an online petition has over a million votes - WOW - well that must completely over ride the 17 million stupid leave votes.
Brexiteers are stupid because they thought we lived in a democracy where the government did as the people wished and especially as they promised to do this. The politicians voted overwhelmingly to invoke article 50 which meant we would leave the EU, again no ifs, ands or buts however being politicians they lied. It appears we live in a society where democracy only exists if people vote they way the intelligentsia say they should.
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Old 21st Mar 2019, 19:28
  #46 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Headstone View Post
Of course Brexiteers are stupid.
They voted in a referendum where the question was - do you want to leave the EU or remain. No ifs and and buts or only if we get what we consider a good deal, just do you want to leave or remain.
ALL major political parties said they would respect the result. Then due to their arrogance and their stupidity in not getting the Remain message over a majority of voters voted to leave but we are not going to as of course the "Intelligentsia" know much more than the common stupid brexiteer. It makes me wonder why we even bother to have universal suffrage. Surely the country would be better off if only intelligent people such as Remoaners and Gruniad readers can vote. These people also know how famous scientists such as Newton and Rutherford would vote as although these scientists were not born there they went to uni in Cambridge so they would have voted remain! Would love to know the reasoning behind that or are intelligent people able to converse with the dead? I have never read anything anywhere about Newton's political leanings or even if he was able to vote - I'm probably not intelligent enough.
Breaking News -an online petition has over a million votes - WOW - well that must completely over ride the 17 million stupid leave votes.
Brexiteers are stupid because they thought we lived in a democracy where the government did as the people wished and especially as they promised to do this. The politicians voted overwhelmingly to invoke article 50 which meant we would leave the EU, again no ifs, ands or buts however being politicians they lied. It appears we live in a society where democracy only exists if people vote they way the intelligentsia say they should.

I think the use of the word ' intelligentsia ' is actually a huge exaggeration....Self-important might be more accurate....

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Old 21st Mar 2019, 20:35
  #47 (permalink)  
 
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You are such a lovely person to talk to!
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Old 22nd Mar 2019, 09:24
  #48 (permalink)  
 
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You are such a lovely person to talk to!
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Old 22nd Mar 2019, 09:30
  #49 (permalink)  
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Personally, the shambles reminds me of one of those mobile phone or utility contracts where, when you try to leave early, the providers produce a huge bill ( details included in the small print thoughtfully provided, but which few actually bother to read....until it's too late. )
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Old 22nd Mar 2019, 14:28
  #50 (permalink)  
 
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And now we have a bunch of morons calling themselves the "Brexit Direct Action group" trying to organise lorry drivers to drive very slowly in large groups on UK motorways so as to f**k up everyone else.

This is supposed to achieve some unknown purpose. Neither the Group nor the people they are trying to get to join them have a very clear idea about what the purpose is, and/or how f*****g up everyone else is actually going to achieve it.

I have no wish at all to be in the same gang as these cretins, so whatever they want is what I'm against. I only wish I knew what this is.

Edit;

Ahah, I have just seen that the plan and purpose of the protest is to "bring the country to its knees". Bit after the event, IMHO. Brexiteers have achieved that conclusively already. The UK is now on its knees in every sense, thanks to their antics. This protest can't make the UK sink any further than it is already. Why are they doing it?

Last edited by old,not bold; 22nd Mar 2019 at 14:40.
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Old 22nd Mar 2019, 14:50
  #51 (permalink)  
 
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Works every time here....

This one more recently

https://www.thelocal.fr/20170925/fra...s-stage-strike

And this one was the most effective of all

https://www.france24.com/en/20131116...protest-ecotax
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Old 22nd Mar 2019, 14:52
  #52 (permalink)  
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trying to organise lorry drivers to drive very slowly in large groups on UK motorways so as to f**k up everyone else.
I thought they were doing that already.

And would it be Lithuanian and Romanian truckers, or Spanish ones aiming to get their strawberries to market late?
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Old 22nd Mar 2019, 16:03
  #53 (permalink)  
 
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Opération Escargot .... well-known in France. Latest reports suggest that Brexit and a proposed extension is now firmly back in the hands of the UK Parliament. We don't need any more clowns getting in on the act.
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Old 22nd Mar 2019, 17:14
  #54 (permalink)  
 
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Brexiteers are stupid because they thought we lived in a democracy where the government did as the people wished and especially as they promised to do this.
Oh dear, (heavy sigh, again) it was 37% of eligible voters who actually voted to leave. I do realise that they won the day due to the rules of the game, but it does irk me when people talk about those 37% as "the British people". It's a demographic that Mrs May on the face of it always forgets. Had she and that gang of fools around her been much more inclusive, from the day the result was known, things would have gone rather better. As it is she's trying to appease the rabid far right, whom she seems to mis-identify as "the British People", while getting everyone else fed up with the whole stupid farce set in motion by David effin Cameron..
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Old 22nd Mar 2019, 17:51
  #55 (permalink)  
 
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The Leave vote was indeed 37% of the overall voting population but the fact remains it was still 51.9% of the people who actually cared enough to vote!
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Old 22nd Mar 2019, 19:13
  #56 (permalink)  
 
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Found this site, dated 28th July 2016, interesting to see what was said back then and what has happened since:

https://ukandeu.ac.uk/what-if-everyo...eu-referendum/

While Brexit likely does not reflect the sentiment of the entire electorate the result of the referendum reflects how democracy works. This is a longstanding constitutional principle and it was honoured on June 23rd. If you don’t participate, your voice is not heard.This discussion of what ‘might have been’ has led some disappointed Remainers (and political movements) to demand a second EU referendum.

Some MPs have called for Parliament to exert its constitutional power and reject the result entirely. Still others have suggested that Prime Minister May and her Government should ‘slow walk’ exit negotiations with the EU, by failing to invoke Article 50 of the Lisbon Treaty and so subvert the Brexit decision with bureaucratic inertia. The success of these efforts remains to be seen and their democratic bona fides are sure to be challenged.
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Old 22nd Mar 2019, 21:45
  #57 (permalink)  
 
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37% Vote

It really is so predictable - Only 37% of the eligible voters voted to leave. I can guarantee with absolute certainty if the numbers had been reversed not one person on Remain side would have sad "Excuse me old chap that is so close and as we only got 37% it doesn't really seem fair to me and we ought to rerun it". No Remain would have been dancing in the streets.

As to the percentage to win the vote, then what should it have been? Over 50% of the vote on the day or over 50% of eligible voters? Will we have that test in any future referendum? Maggie pulled a similar fast one on the Scots in a referendum so very surprised the Cameron Clown didn't do something similar or was it just arrogance on his part that the proles would toe the party line? However when asked the question in 1975 the percentage that voted to remain in the EEC - It was just 43% of eligible voters that said they wanted to remain in the EEC. Should that have been enough to pass the test? It was only a 66% turn out but that did not concern the government and we remained as members of the EEC.

By the way does the EEC ring a bell? The great lie we were fed by Heath/Wilson et al. Talk about Brexiteers being sold a Unicorn what a scam and lie we were fed than. I can remember Grocer Ted on the TV in the initial vote in 1973 and Wilson puffing on his pipe in 1975 assuring this was not a step towards a political union and we were just entering a trading partnership with our very good friends in Europe.

Back to the point - Do we live in North Korea/ the Soviet Union/ Nazi Germany? Do we have mob rule when the shoutiest lot led by a bunch of lying politicians win (one MP even had an electronic tag on when she voted last week as wearing it was a condition of her release from jail) or do we live in a country where people vote for something and politicians actually carry out the wishes of the people - whether or not they are "morons" as so eloquently described above?
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Old 22nd Mar 2019, 22:29
  #58 (permalink)  
 
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Headstone, yes, yes, we all know that the rules of the referendum meant that a simple majority of those who voted won the day.

But the unavoidable fact is that 63% of eligible voters did not vote to leave, while 37% did. It's just a factual demographic, not a debating point about how fair it all was. Or indeed about how stupid the referendum was in the first place.

That demographic means that spouting on about "the will of the British People" is just nonsense. It was not the will of the British people to leave, any more than it was the will of the British people to remain. It was the will of 37% of eligible voters to leave, and that's it.

For what it's worth, I very much doubt that a majority of those who voted "Leave" wanted a No Deal exit, once they understood, as the rest of us have come to understand, what a catastrophe that would be for the UK.

By the way, if you want to join the petition to revoke Article 50 (3,759,530 signatures and counting) here's the link
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Old 22nd Mar 2019, 22:40
  #59 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by old,not bold View Post
Headstone, yes, yes, we all know that the rules of the referendum meant that a simple majority of those who voted won the day.

But the unavoidable fact is that 63% of eligible voters did not vote to leave, while 37% did. It's just a factual demographic, not a debating point about how fair it all was. Or indeed about how stupid the referendum was in the first place.

That demographic means that spouting on about "the will of the British People" is just nonsense. It was not the will of the British people to leave, any more than it was the will of the British people to remain. It was the will of 37% of eligible voters to leave, and that's it.

For what it's worth, I very much doubt that a majority of those who voted "Leave" wanted a No Deal exit, once they understood, as the rest of us have come to understand, what a catastrophe that would be for the UK.
The reality was that, for whatever reason, about 28% of the electorate chose not to vote, or couldn't be arsed (we don't know which), about 35% voted to remain and about 37% voted to leave.

It's not reasonable to assume that the ~28% that didn't vote hold any particular view; the most rational thing to do is to assume that they were either genuinely undecided, or couldn't care less, which amounts to the same thing, in terms of the outcome. Perhaps we should choose to split the non-voters 50/50 and present the results as 51% leave, 49% remain, as that seems to fall into line with what actually happened. Assuming that the 28% of non-voters would have all voted to remain, or all voted to leave, seems a hell of a stretch either way.

When I voted I didn't want a "no deal" exit, but frankly I've been of the view that it would be far and away the better option over the past few weeks, given the way our government have been squabbling like children.
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Old 22nd Mar 2019, 22:55
  #60 (permalink)  
 
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I very much doubt that a majority of those who voted "Leave" wanted a No Deal exit,
Who mentioned a 'Deal' during the Referendum?
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