Jet Blast Topics that don't fit the other forums. Rules of Engagement apply.

BREXIT

Old 11th Apr 2019, 08:07
  #521 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Lincoln
Age: 67
Posts: 458
Originally Posted by Steepclimb View Post
He doesn't need to. The onus is on the Brexiteers to prove the benefits of leaving which they have signally failed to do. Indeed many fully accept that initially the benefits would 'down the road somewhere'.
You may have missed the point, pug was refuting what Gouli said:

Alternatively, it is a subject the public know a great deal about. The public are determined to stop a small privileged group of wealthy people from keeping their snouts in the EU trough to the detriment of the vast majority. Can it possibly be the case that the beleavers are actually more clued up than the remoaners? The "wisdom of crowds" theory certainly suggests that this is the case.
which is not mentioning the benefits of leaving, I merely asked pug to provide evidence to support his assertion that Gouli is wrong in his views that exit voters might be more clued up than remain voters:

I'm afraid the evidence is proving the exact opposite actually.
As an aside, remain have never really provided any reasoned debate on why remaining in the EU would be better than coming out, most responses are:
We don't have too, usually followed by supposition, personnel opinions and insults (admittedly not all subscribe to insults, veiled or otherwise), but those are my OPINIONS on what I read.

Exrigger is offline  
Old 11th Apr 2019, 09:53
  #522 (permalink)  
Thought police antagonist
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Where I always have been...firmly in the real world
Posts: 941
Originally Posted by Exrigger View Post
, personnel opinions and insults (admittedly not all subscribe to insults, veiled or otherwise), but those are my OPINIONS on what I read.
Tsk ! been spending too much time reading H. R. surveys then ?.........most of which are insulting to the reader I agree.

Krystal n chips is offline  
Old 11th Apr 2019, 12:08
  #523 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Europe
Posts: 2,050
The state of the UK's parliamentary democracy is best described by the fact that hours after the EU has warned/begged the UK to make good use of the extension and to not waste time, MP in the Commons are kind of high-fiving each other when the speaker announces a 12 day Easter break - instead of chaining them up in the house until they do their duty and come up with a feasible solution.
virginblue is offline  
Old 11th Apr 2019, 12:37
  #524 (permalink)  
Cunning Artificer
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: The spiritual home of DeHavilland
Age: 72
Posts: 3,108
It now looks like we will Remain in the EU - at least until that clause that requires "All member states to adopt the Euro" comes into force in a couple of years or so - at which time it will fire up again as the City of London begins its defence of the Pound and its status as a reserve currency.

Then we'll be out. Money talks louder than mere politics.
Blacksheep is offline  
Old 11th Apr 2019, 14:14
  #525 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Europe
Posts: 2,050
Thank goodness, I was already worried:

Fans of Britain’s long-running comedy-drama Brexit are today overjoyed after learning that another season of the popular show has been commissioned.

Just when it looked like the UK’s telly addicts would need to find another boxset to binge it has been announced that Brexit – possibly the greatest farce since Fawlty Towers and a fantasy to rival Game of Thrones – will roll on for at least one more season
virginblue is offline  
Old 11th Apr 2019, 14:42
  #526 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: The Winchester
Posts: 5,569
Originally Posted by Blacksheep View Post
It now looks like we will Remain in the EU - at least until that clause that requires "All member states to adopt the Euro" comes into force in a couple of years or so .

Nice try at stirring things up but even the State Broadcaster has had to admit that is "Fake news"..

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-47523168
wiggy is online now  
Old 11th Apr 2019, 16:17
  #527 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Lincoln
Age: 67
Posts: 458
Two deadlines passed without following the law of Article 50, and now another 6 months extension to do what.

1. The EU have given the UK another extension and have to make it meaningful.
2. The only deal is not acceptable to Westminster without change.
3. The EU state it will not open re-negotiations on that deal and implied that no other deal will be discussed.
4. All meaningful votes on an alternative exit options have been voted out to date.
5. May has said that MPís can work on other ideas to vote on as alternatives to the one deal, which will be voted out as before.
6. May has said she will continue discussions with Corbyn who is sticking to his red line of staying in the Customs union, which neither the Westminster shower nor the EU will allow.

So exactly what is going to be achieved in the next 6 months that has not been achieved in three years, this would appear to show that one or more parties is up to something in the background and the only things I can think of are these:

1. The EU will change Ďthe dealí if it looks remotely like the UK will no deal out, or will extend further as necessary, doubt this option will happen as they know the UK will try and avoid no deal.
2. There will be another referendum just before the next deadline that will be worded that the preferred option of remain is the only possible outcome. This would need further extensions which the EU will be happy about as they continue to get the UK contribution.
3. There will be another GE, but that will not return either the Conservatives or Labour with any majority. This would need further extensions which the EU will be happy about as they continue to get the UK contribution.
4. May will resign before October and whoever takes over will no deal out in October.
5. May will resign before October and whoever takes over will rescind Article 50.
6. By the time the next deadline arrives we will be exactly where we are now and will be looking to extend again, and again.

Cannot think of anything I have missed, but hopefully people can suggest other options, or offer another version to all or any of the above.
Exrigger is offline  
Old 11th Apr 2019, 17:07
  #528 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: England
Posts: 342
And if you think this is a mess, just wait until the negotiations start on the "easiest ever trade deal"©B.Johnson.

It's what you voted for.
Sallyann1234 is offline  
Old 11th Apr 2019, 17:13
  #529 (permalink)  
pug
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: A post-punk postcard fair
Posts: 942
.which is not mentioning the benefits of leaving, I merely asked pug to provide evidence to support his assertion that Gouli is wrong in his views that exit voters might be more clued up than remain voters:
Wasn’t what I was referring to. I was referring to the suggestion that a small amount of people with their ‘snouts in the EU’ are being protected by remainers. When in reality the Rees Moggs have shifted assets to the Cayman Islands to safeguard their money. Incidentally not paying corporation tax.. Or the example of Dyson shifting HQ to Singapore to make use of the free trade agreement with the EU. Or perhaps Boris who had two articles written and ready to print; one for remain and one for backing leave, merely to further his own political agenda. I would like evidence to show me exactly who the small number of people who have their snouts in the EU are. My argument is to protect the status quo, it has always been the leavers - the change proponents - to tell us why we are better off outside of the EU. There have been no compelling arguments to back that up. Explains why blatant lies are being shared en mass on social media.

By correcting what was clearly a grammatical typo due to responding on an iPhone, kind of shows why you may attract the insults. You may have noticed I haven’t gone down the insult route, nor do I wish to either.
pug is offline  
Old 11th Apr 2019, 17:19
  #530 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Lincoln
Age: 67
Posts: 458
Originally Posted by Sallyann1234 View Post
And if you think this is a mess, just wait until the negotiations start on the "easiest ever trade deal"©B.Johnson.

It's what you voted for.
I note the smiley, but no-one knew we had such a useless bunch of muppets in Westminster, you cannot blame the leave voter for that, unless remain knew all along that Westminster would make a complete dogs dinner of sorting out Brexit, in which case you probably could have won the referendum had you used that as part of your campaign. However, you would not have known that either, anymore than you know leaving without a deal will actually be a disaster.
Exrigger is offline  
Old 11th Apr 2019, 17:34
  #531 (permalink)  
pug
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: A post-punk postcard fair
Posts: 942
However, you would not have known that either, anymore than you know leaving without a deal will actually be a disaster
Thats a disingenuous argument. Evidence based forecasts suggest it would be a disaster, one example being for our multinational manufacturing business - the large employers - who rely on just in time supply models. If you have a hard border with customs checks, that simply stops just in time deliveries at the point of implementation. Production would grind to a halt. This may be mitigated in time with stock piling of supplies, but it places another barrier to growth and the likelihood is that these manufacturers would relocate to the continent, resulting in the loss of thousands of jobs. They are the realities as outlined by the service industries in the supply chain, which incidentally is rarely (if ever) mentioned in mainstream media.
pug is offline  
Old 11th Apr 2019, 17:35
  #532 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: England
Posts: 342
Originally Posted by Exrigger View Post
I note the smiley, but no-one knew we had such a useless bunch of muppets in Westminster, you cannot blame the leave voter for that, unless remain knew all along that Westminster would make a complete dogs dinner of sorting out Brexit, in which case you probably could have won the referendum had you used that as part of your campaign. However, you would not have known that either, anymore than you know leaving without a deal will actually be a disaster.
That's true about parliament of course.
But the Brexit referendum was Pandora's box.
Opinions were entrenched across the spectrum and whatever the result it was going to leave a legacy of bitter disappointment and distrust.
Farage said that he would not accept a narrow Remain majority, and many Remainers do not accept the narrow Leave majority.
We are going to leave, and we won't be leaving quietly. That was never going to happen. The bitterness will last for yesrd

​​​​​​.
Sallyann1234 is offline  
Old 11th Apr 2019, 17:53
  #533 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Lincoln
Age: 67
Posts: 458
Originally Posted by pug View Post
Wasn’t what I was referring to. I was referring to the suggestion that a small amount of people with their ‘snouts in the EU’ are being protected by remainers. When in reality the Rees Moggs have shifted assets to the Cayman Islands to safeguard their money. Incidentally not paying corporation tax.. Or the example of Dyson shifting HQ to Singapore to make use of the free trade agreement with the EU. Or perhaps Boris who had two articles written and ready to print; one for remain and one for backing leave, merely to further his own political agenda. I would like evidence to show me exactly who the small number of people who have their snouts in the EU are. My argument is to protect the status quo, it has always been the leavers - the change proponents - to tell us why we are better off outside of the EU. There have been no compelling arguments to back that up. Explains why blatant lies are being shared en mass on social media.

By correcting what was clearly a grammatical typo due to responding on an iPhone, kind of shows why you may attract the insults. You may have noticed I haven’t gone down the insult route, nor do I wish to either.
It might have made that point clearer had you only quoted that part of the original message you were actually responding to, as I took it to mean you were responding to the part I quoted as well, so apologies for that.

As for insults I do not believe I stated or implied you had made any and I don't think correcting errors in the past by others has attracted insults, but no doubt there will be some who will find evidence to support that premise.

With regards correcting a typo, I would guess that it is not clearly obvious to anyone that you were using an iPhone, however I will apologise as I lowered myself to respond at the level that is normally the domain of some remain voters.
Exrigger is offline  
Old 11th Apr 2019, 18:07
  #534 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Lincoln
Age: 67
Posts: 458
Originally Posted by Sallyann1234 View Post
That's true about parliament of course.
We are going to leave, and we won't be leaving quietly. That was never going to happen. The bitterness will last for yesrd
​​​​​​.
I am beginning to believe that between the EU/May/Westminster antics that we will not leave, this will go on exactly as it has to date until October and we will not have moved forward, we will get another extension and so it will go on until something breaks, as we will not ever leave under WTO rules that only leaves remain which is what they are leading too, by foul means not fair.

You are right, the bitterness will last for years and those in Westminster will find that out at the next election I am sure. I wonder if they will get the hint from the local Council elections coming up as a taster of what is to come at a GE.
Exrigger is offline  
Old 11th Apr 2019, 18:28
  #535 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2019
Location: Great Britain
Posts: 1
EXRIGGER, It genuinely boggles my mind that so many people are only lately realising that we are not leaving,(even more boggling that some still think we are)
We were never going to be allowed out, the Master must stay in control of his serfs
Nothing short of a revolution will get the Western world out of this crapfest and after a decades of softening into compliant consumers, I don't think the British public have the balls for it, it will come but it wont start in this country
Hyperdark is offline  
Old 11th Apr 2019, 18:41
  #536 (permalink)  
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Lincolnshire
Age: 76
Posts: 16,649
Originally Posted by pug View Post
. . . Evidence based forecasts suggest it would be a disaster, one example being for our multinational manufacturing business - the large employers - who rely on just in time supply models. If you have a hard border with customs checks, that simply stops just in time deliveries at the point of implementation. Production would grind to a halt. This may be mitigated in time with stock piling of supplies, but it places another barrier to growth and the likelihood is that these manufacturers would relocate to the continent, resulting in the loss of thousands of jobs. . .
This is a reasonable argument, sadly it is one that Cameron et al might have spelt out but like many they chose to declare the sky would fall in on Exit Friday.

Where we can largely be laid at his door for not preparing the remain argument on evidence based facts.
​​​
Pontius Navigator is offline  
Old 11th Apr 2019, 18:41
  #537 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Lincoln
Age: 67
Posts: 458
Originally Posted by pug View Post


Thats a disingenuous argument. Evidence based forecasts suggest it would be a disaster, one example being for our multinational manufacturing business - the large employers - who rely on just in time supply models. If you have a hard border with customs checks, that simply stops just in time deliveries at the point of implementation. Production would grind to a halt. This may be mitigated in time with stock piling of supplies, but it places another barrier to growth and the likelihood is that these manufacturers would relocate to the continent, resulting in the loss of thousands of jobs. They are the realities as outlined by the service industries in the supply chain, which incidentally is rarely (if ever) mentioned in mainstream media.
pug; with all due respect, how can there be 'evidence based forecasts' no-one has ever left the EU under WTO rules so there is no historical, or empirical, evidence to accurately forecast what could be one outcome of many, even your post utilises words like 'suggest' (it could equally be suggested that it will not be a disaster), 'if you had a hard border' (equally you might not and then those problems are not there) and 'this may be mitigated in time' (it equally might not need stockpiling to mitigate).

These are my opinions based on reading the business news media, talking to German car company employees when my car is serviced, the government site providing information for businesses, and public, for leaving with or without a deal and EU news outlets, in addition it is fun reading the red tops for the comments from both sides of the debate.
Exrigger is offline  
Old 11th Apr 2019, 18:54
  #538 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Lincoln
Age: 67
Posts: 458
Originally Posted by Hyperdark View Post
EXRIGGER, It genuinely boggles my mind that so many people are only lately realising that we are not leaving,(even more boggling that some still think we are)
We were never going to be allowed out, the Master must stay in control of his serfs
Nothing short of a revolution will get the Western world out of this crapfest and after a decades of softening into compliant consumers, I don't think the British public have the balls for it, it will come but it wont start in this country
It should not really come as a surprise, until recently a large number of remain people also thought we were leaving despite the concerted efforts utilised to stop Brexit, you could be right about the public not having the balls for any revolution or real protest like those against the Community Charge (poll tax), funny enough that was under the first women PM.
Exrigger is offline  
Old 11th Apr 2019, 18:58
  #539 (permalink)  
pug
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: A post-punk postcard fair
Posts: 942
Exrigger, if we left without a deal we would have a hard border, that is a fact. So how can you operate to a just in time production model with a hard border? How could you be in a position to avoid stockpiling? Evidence based is listening to industry, not talking to people who service your car. Ever thought that nobody has done it because it’s so unpalatable as to make it unworkable? Are you seriously advocating an experiment? You are talking in philosophies, my argument remains. You cannot provide a solid argument for why we would definitely be better off outside, that is your job as a leave advocate to do. It is the leave argument that is in essence talking in maybes, we’re currently in the EU, I’m basing my argument on our current membership if the EU. I merely want things to remain the same.
pug is offline  
Old 11th Apr 2019, 19:04
  #540 (permalink)  
pug
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: A post-punk postcard fair
Posts: 942
Originally Posted by Pontius Navigator View Post
This is a reasonable argument, sadly it is one that Cameron et al might have spelt out but like many they chose to declare the sky would fall in on Exit Friday.

Where we can largely be laid at his door for not preparing the remain argument on evidence based facts.
​​​
Agree entirely that remain fought a poor campaign. However, facts such as those are not sexy. People wanted change in the face of years of austerity. They voted leave, with the hope of a better future. Unfortunately it is U.K. Gvt. who implemented austerity, not the EU. I refer to my original post, they have been subtly scapegoated, which is why I believe leave won.
pug is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell My Personal Information

Copyright © 2018 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.