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BREXIT

Old 23rd Oct 2019, 10:28
  #3481 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by KelvinD View Post
Groundbase:

I wonder why parliament could not find their way clear to convene a special all party work group to agree what exactly would be an acceptable arrangement to take to the EU? They could have done that 3 years ago and perhaps an agreement acceptable to the majority of the people could have been in place by now. That could have been put to a referendum and, if voted favourably, we could have gone to the EU and said here is the basis for negotiation and sensible discussions could have been done and dusted by now, one way or another. Whichever way that turned out, we would have had an end to this nauseating circus.
I don't disagree with this, it would clearly have been better to have agreed a position before enacting Article 50 to go into the negotiation with as the EU did. It would also have clearly been better not to have enacted article 50 until we were ready and not to have had an unnecessary General Election that precipitated the situation we are in now. I don't agree that the position being taken to the negotiations should have been put to a referendum as the process of a negotiation would have changed the position either subltly or significantly, and then what would we do, put every change back to the people? Agreeing the detail of a broad instruction is what we pay our elected representatives to do, if they can't do this they are useless to us.
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Old 23rd Oct 2019, 10:28
  #3482 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Groundbased View Post
How could he have signed this deal months ago? It wasn't on the table until two weeks ago.
A better one was.
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Old 23rd Oct 2019, 10:31
  #3483 (permalink)  
 
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One law that does need to change is the inability of a sitting PM to call an election when his side has lost a majority, it is just wrong that we could run for years with a Government with their hands tied behind their backs in theory unable to pass any laws or budgets.
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Old 23rd Oct 2019, 11:09
  #3484 (permalink)  
 
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Takeaways from yesterday

Ian Duncan-Smith insisting that parliament are being deliberately difficult since they know full well whats in Boris bill as it is the same as the white paper Theresa May put forward only a a year ago. Hmmmm well wasn't it him and his friends who voted against that a year ago.

Boris ' insistence on leaving on 31/10, dying in ditches etc , was stupid from the start- had he asked for a three month extension he could probably have got all this through without lying to the Queen and and other stupid stunts which deeply question his credibility as PM

Boris was known to have a very very distant relationship with the truth before becoming PM but now he is seen as completely and utterly dishonest to the point where no one really believes him and therefor wont take his word for anything in his new deal , which of course isnt new at all and contains exactly the provisions NI/DUP didnt want under TM.

That we have a Parliamentary democracy in this country not a dictatorship and the PM is first and foremost an MP and has to obey the rules like anyone else. you vote for your MP not for the PM. Talking of which an election will be interesting-what will happen say in Walton on Thames where the MP is the demonstrably hapless and hopeless Dominic Raab, as Pro brexit as can be but 75% of his constituents voted Remain . Or even my own constituency where we are blessed with Ice Man Gove where the same local council area went from a Conservative majority of 20 plus to a majority of 1 in the post brexit council elections.
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Old 23rd Oct 2019, 11:14
  #3485 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by NutLoose View Post
I was voting as were those I have asked to leave the EU period, we were not voting on how we left as the idea of a soft Brexit had never been mooted at that point, remember the monies that we pay to the EU would by the definition of the out campaign have been retained in the UK, the soft Brexit as they put it does not allow that, so that was never on the cards.
AND I WISH PEOPLE IN HERE WOULD STOP TELLING ME WHY AND HOW I VOTED TO LEAVE.
You've summed up the problem. The actual consequences of leaving the EU were never spelt out certainly not the by leave campaign and very badly by the remain campaign.

No one thought of Northern Ireland, as usual. No one thought of Scotland as usual. No one speaks of Wales as usual.
No one spoke of or expected a no deal exit. No one thought of how the EU would react. No one imagined a carefully negotiated deal brought forward by the government would be rejected by an unholy alliance of the Brexiteers and the Labour Party. Which would bring down a Tory PM, propelling Boris Johnson into number 10. A man who has a long standing history of making up negative stories and lies about the EU.

No one saw it coming, not even you.

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Old 23rd Oct 2019, 11:28
  #3486 (permalink)  
 
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I don't quite get it, the UK system seems to take WWs in stride but a tiny Brexit throws it into knots.

As I have never understood how a country without a written constitution could work I am assuming I am looking at such a case just now.

Or could somebody tell me where I err ...
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Old 23rd Oct 2019, 11:41
  #3487 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by NutLoose View Post
I was voting as were those I have asked to leave the EU period, we were not voting on how we left

No need to whinge : you didn't care how you would leave, so no problem leaving with 'people telling you how you voted and why', is it ?
Or is it that you didn't quite exactly know why and what you voted for...?

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Old 23rd Oct 2019, 11:44
  #3488 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Groundbased View Post
How could he have signed this deal months ago? It wasn't on the table until two weeks ago.
Oh yes it was.
What kept him ?

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Old 23rd Oct 2019, 11:46
  #3489 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Sallyann1234 View Post
A better one was.
That depends on your point of view. From the perspective of the remain majority (of MPs) May's deal was obviously going to be better than anything that came later for the reasons I stated in another post. They should have voted for it when they had the chance. Johnson wouldn't even be Prime Minister and we would now be having the trade discussion.
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Old 23rd Oct 2019, 11:48
  #3490 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Fly Aiprt View Post
Oh yes it was.
What kept him ?
This deal was not on the table. May's deal was and that was different.
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Old 23rd Oct 2019, 11:57
  #3491 (permalink)  
 
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I still can't understand how this deal does not contravene the Good Friday agreement, or why no one has yet used that legally binding international treaty, to seek an injunction preventing Brexit.

Perhaps someone could enlighten me.
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Old 23rd Oct 2019, 12:00
  #3492 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by WB627 View Post
I still can't understand how this deal does not contravene the Good Friday agreement, or why no one has yet used that legally binding international treaty, to seek an injunction preventing Brexit.

Perhaps someone could enlighten me.
This surprises me also. Given that the EU have continually stated that their primary objective is to ensure the GFA is not compromised I can only assume that by agreeing to the deal they believe it doesn't affect the GFA. I think a case has been brought to examine this, but nothing forthcoming as yet.
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Old 23rd Oct 2019, 12:02
  #3493 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Groundbased View Post
This deal was not on the table. May's deal was and that was different.
A deal is something you have to negotiate with the other party.
What kept him from negotiating months ago ?
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Old 23rd Oct 2019, 12:35
  #3494 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Fly Aiprt View Post
A deal is something you have to negotiate with the other party.
What kept him from negotiating months ago ?
He wasn't the Prime Minister.

If you mean since he became Prime Minister then he has had 90 odd days to re-open and re-negotiate something that had taken 2.5 years to put together, which most people said was not possible, and which the EU originally said was not up for re-negotiation.
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Old 23rd Oct 2019, 12:40
  #3495 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Groundbased View Post
He wasn't the Prime Minister.
I had the notion he's entered office on July the 23rd.
What has he been doing since then ?
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Old 23rd Oct 2019, 12:48
  #3496 (permalink)  
 
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Old 23rd Oct 2019, 12:50
  #3497 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Fly Aiprt View Post
I had the notion he's entered office on July the 23rd.
What has he been doing since then ?
Negotiating.
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Old 23rd Oct 2019, 12:53
  #3498 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by wiggy View Post
Interesting but of course the current legal entitlement in the UK ( ATM underpinned by the EU rules) is not be what many people are expressing concerns about....
You're quite right wiggy, I was merely trying to highlight the guff spouted by an 'honourable gentleman' during yesterdays debate. (post 3439)
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Old 23rd Oct 2019, 13:08
  #3499 (permalink)  
 
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Blowjo’s tactics are all designed to put him in the light of being true to the will of the people. He and his team knew full well that parliament would not back a rush through prior 31st October; the EU will grant an extension; there will be an election and the Torres will be back in with an increased majority due to astute crowd pleasing and Brexit fatigue. Which other party has anything like coherence of message to prevent this?

The price for the UK as England and Wales go boldly forth into that world of unfettered possibility will be felt in the coming years.
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Old 23rd Oct 2019, 13:12
  #3500 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Torquetalk View Post
The price for the UK as England and Wales go boldly forth into that world of unfettered possibility will be felt in the coming years.
The price for the UK will be Bojo giving the SDP another referendum in return for their 35 votes
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