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Anti Vaxxers

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Anti Vaxxers

Old 17th Apr 2019, 16:03
  #401 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 1999
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Originally Posted by double_barrel View Post
Nope. You are still not listening to me. If millions of people with PhDs have a hunch about something, that is an important start and the hunch needs to be taken seriously and tested.

Just like Wakefield's hunch was tested. And his methodology examined.


Was it really? Who by? It appears to me that because of what he was dealing with, his ideas were quashed ASAP.
Look, I’d love to know what his co-authors thought of him and if their thoughts have changed over the years. Do you know why he was struck off? Or exactly what the paper said? Here is an excerpt from a post that a friend of mine posted:

“Where Wakefield got crucified was because he stated in his study: "The parents report that symptoms of ASD and gut issues both first showed at the same time, which was immediately after the MMR vaccine." This is a true statement. **That is what the parents reported**.
You have to bear in mind that Wakefield's study, like this one, was a case study, in which it is standard practice to report patients' reports of their own condition. This is not proof, it is simply a valid observation. Which is why the Wakefield study explicitly stated, and I quote:

"This study does not prove a link between the MMR vaccine and autism."”

But it was enough to start the furore that has raged to this day.






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Old 17th Apr 2019, 18:30
  #402 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Stan Woolley View Post
“Where Wakefield got crucified was because he stated in his study: "The parents report that symptoms of ASD and gut issues both first showed at the same time, which was immediately after the MMR vaccine." This is a true statement. **That is what the parents reported**.
You have to bear in mind that Wakefield's study, like this one, was a case study, in which it is standard practice to report patients' reports of their own condition. This is not proof, it is simply a valid observation. Which is why the Wakefield study explicitly stated, and I quote:

"This study does not prove a link between the MMR vaccine and autism."”

But it was enough to start the furore that has raged to this day.

He wasn't "crucified", he was simply held to account for what he published, in the same way that any scientist should expect to be.

Nor was he criticised for reaching the "wrong" conclusions, but for telling lies and falsifying evidence and results in an effort to justify them.

At least that what his peers concluded. Go figure.
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Old 17th Apr 2019, 18:54
  #403 (permalink)  
 
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I am an aged but fairly new grandfather and as such I am taking more of an interest in this topic than I would otherwise. One of my sons is a physicist who specialises in data analysis and he assures me that all available data shows no link between MMR and autism. However, I did watch the Wakefield video all the way through and, on the face of it, it was rather disturbing. But it did raise several questions which I have tried to answer by looking further and, the more I try to find answers, the more questions I find.

The questions concern what happened after the Lancet paper was published which brought Wakefield to the fore even though he claimed that he was only the scribe. He claimed that Walker Smith was the lead scientist and yet his name hardly appears in any of the easily accessible information other than the original paper. Walker Smith appealed against his loss of licence and won but it seems that Wakefield had already gone too far in public to come back. His excuse that he couldn't afford to appeal whereas Walker Smith had sponsorship for his appeal just doesn't make sense.

Stan, these videos are meaningless without some kind of qualified adversarial input from the other side. All we have in front of us is input from those who seem to think that shouting longer and louder makes their case more believable.

It reminds me of a similar event in the 60's when a doctor made a claim that the contraceptive pill increased the chances of cancer of the uterus. Immediately, there was panic among young women, many of whom stopped taking the pill and risked unwanted pregnancy. With no internet at that time, David Frost invited this doctor onto his TV show to discuss his findings with a doctor from the Family Planning Association (FPA). The discussion soon sunk into subjective arguments so Frost ended it and asked the two doctors to meet up and agree a story which they could present to the public which would help them to make up their mind about the risks of the pill.

The next week, the anti-pill doctor quickly reverted to the subjective arguments from the previous week. The FPA doctor reached under this chair, brought out a packet of rice and tipped it out of the coffee table in front of them. I cannot remember the exact numbers but he said that there were something like 100,000 grains of rice there. He picked out a couple of grains and said that this represented the number of women who would suffer from cancer of the uterus without the pill. He then picked out 2 more and said that this was the number of additional cases from women who took the pill. A wonderfully clear picture of the risk from taking the pill.that any reasonably thinking person could see.



This is the sort of information we need to see on the risks of MMR. Otherwise it is just annoying noise.
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Old 17th Apr 2019, 19:17
  #404 (permalink)  
 
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This is the sort of information we need to see on the risks of MMR. Otherwise it is just annoying noise.
Thank you for at least watching the video, it’s good to have someone not open the conversation with an insult of some sort.

Thankfully my daughter is nearing University age, but I too will have to watch and see what she decides to do if I ever see grandchildren. All I’d say, is watch as many videos from all ‘sides’ as possible, if you’re like me, that’s what I find works best at this stage. Many here are not fans of videos, but seeing someone say things directly gives me a better idea of their true character. Of course reading stuff works too, but I would say that it is easier to lie when writing stuff down, than when being filmed.

I think you’ll find it far easier to get the view from one side than the other. They’re slowly censoring debate.
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Old 17th Apr 2019, 19:41
  #405 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Stan Woolley View Post
Was it really? Who by?
Seriously? Of course it has been rigorously tested, and there is zero statistical evidence of an association with autism.

Originally Posted by Stan Woolley View Post
But it was enough to start the furore that has raged to this day.
There is no furore in the real world
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Old 17th Apr 2019, 21:55
  #406 (permalink)  
 
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It’s not a perfect world. There are some unscrupulous people out there, there are some immoral businesses. Sometimes you have to use your judgement and your instincts and/or you do your research. Sometimes you just have to trust the experts, because that’s what they’ve been trained to do. I don’t insist on checking the qualifications or want proof that the two humans at the front of my aircraft taking me and my family on holiday know what they’re doing or that they’re even mentally fit. I get into my car every day trusting that generally other drivers aren’t out to deliberately kill me. I eat food from supermarkets without panicking that they might not be using adequate hygiene with food storage. Likewise, I dine at restaurants assuming that no one is putting anything dodgy in my food. As a species, we’re living longer and healthier lives than we ever have before. I suspect the reason we see more cancers nowadays, is not because of some sinister subterfuge, it’s because we are not being killed off by other diseases first - diseases that were commonplace a century plus ago. The same with children and autism. Decades ago, there was always the odd kids who couldn’t sit still, were disruptive in school etc. who would very easily nowadays get a label. I do also have a concern that there is currently a tendency to over diagnose Autism/Aspergers - there is a theory that we’re all ‘on the spectrum’ to a lesser or greater degree.

I’m not naive but I’m coming in to the conclusion that some people are just paranoid. It’s a real first world problem - too much time on their hands and they’ve got nothing to be afraid of, they’ve had to invent a bogeyman.





Last edited by BehindBlueEyes; 17th Apr 2019 at 22:06.
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Old 17th Apr 2019, 22:44
  #407 (permalink)  
 
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Quotes by Stan Woolley:
Was it really? Who by? It appears to me that because of what he was dealing with, his ideas were quashed ASAP.
If 100s of smart people have a profound intuition that a vaccine can cause autism, what do we do? (question by another poster)
You start really listening to what they have to say.
Stan, You wouldn't be here today if the people who designed and built aircraft engines operated based on intuition. Likewise, parents who may think you are an expert on vaccines, should they be used or not may very well make the wrong decision not to use proven vaccines. In the instance of autism linked to vaccines, it is general knowledge in the legitimate medical community that the causes autism tend to be genetic, developed in the womb and caused perhaps by the lifestyles of parents and grandparents well before vaccinations. It is something you need to consider.

Stan, I am not a pilot, but an engineer. I operated off real confirmed engineering data to make decisions, most were right decisions, a few turned out to be wrong, but not many and not off intuitions. The medical profession is not different then the aircraft engine business unless you are a conspiracy theorist where you absolutely doubt the medical profession validity. If you are a conspiracy theorist, there is nothing anyone can present to you that will change your thrust, it isn't a discussion, for you it is a conviction you are right and everyone else is wrong. What is interesting in this, relative to autism, it is mainly thought to occur before any vaccines are administered, a malformation of the brain that could be the result of the prior generation/generations. think about that for awhile. But you need to read the information below to fully comprehend this.

Two of the foremost medical institutions in the United States discuss autism and it would be good for you to read what they have to say, unless you are beyond the state to even consider anything other than quack/outlier presenters of false information. So if you are truly interested in this subject, you will read these articles, but that is up to you. If you don't, there is no other conclusion other to state that you are a conspiracy theorist. Have a good weekend...

https://www.webmd.com/children/vacci...-mmr-vaccine#1

https://my.clevelandclinic.org/healt...es/8855-autism

https://www.cleveland.com/healthfit/...arch_on_r.html

https://my.clevelandclinic.org/podca...ynthia-johnson

https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-...s/syc-20352928

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Old 18th Apr 2019, 00:07
  #408 (permalink)  
 
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When they’ve no real arguments they resort to insult.
Its another case of “We disagree with him so he’s obviously a troll/conspiracy theorist. Shut this conversation down!” I’ve been a member here since way before you joined, Dickus, posting more than my fair share of ‘sensible’ or ‘pilot type’ posts. So I suggest you stfu or post something that adds to the thread.E]
Stan Woolley: Is there some reason you think the troll comment was aimed at you? Please explain......
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Old 18th Apr 2019, 02:13
  #409 (permalink)  
 
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Intuition and aviation ....

Someone just brought up the risk associated with going only by intuition. That made me think of Henri Mignet and his Pou du Ciel or Sky Louse.

Henri intuited that conventional aircraft were far too complicated, so that he designed and built one that was simplicity itself. Unfortunately, reality can be a bit complicated, so that Henri missed something that more research would have discovered; in his quest for simplicity he had included a fatal design flaw that meant the Louse could become unrecoverable in a shallow dive. So much for pure intuition.

P. Dickus suggested that it is time to stop feeding the troll, when I named Stan as an obvious one of those. That would be because of his use of obvious troll tactics, of course, as enumerated above. Now, there's nothing wrong with trolling, up to a point, but when it becomes playing games with important facts about human health, not just what in hell Donald Trump does with his hair, then the fun stops.

Trolling can create a vicious feedback loop, people citing citations of doubt to create more doubt, that sort of "Well, a lot of people are saying that autism is on the rise and I was just wondering if (non-Doctor) So-and-so could possibly be right about how her child got his jabs and then came down with autism. I think we need to look at the (non-) evidence, and here's (an article; a video clip; an anecdote about a friend of a friend who had a kid who spazzed out after getting a shot ... ) that I think everyone needs to take in."

When whatever is presented goes down in flames then the trolling starts in earnest with pious claims that "I never said that I believe this; I am only asking for people to be open-minded, not narrow-minded the way you lot are being." Then it's "The game is afoot!" but a game played by a Doofus MacDoofus of Clan Doofus, not by a Sherlock Holmes. Some sort of anti-detective, if you will.

Not everyone has been exposed to learning about scientific method, so that this BS can get a strong grip on the vulnerable. Then the shallow fun to be had by trolling can do real harm.

I know this lady from Eastern Europe who, despite her medical training, always zings me, whenever we meet, with some fresh "So what about 9/11; the moon landings; what was in the papers about some woman from Indonesia who went swimming and then gave birth to a frog .... "

You name it and she's into it, perhaps (God, but I hope so!) just for "fun." Yeah, well, the fun must be that for professional reasons I am forced to be polite listening to her pushing what to me is annoying nonsense.

The thing is that it's one thing to kick the can around, but something entirely different to try kicking around a big, steaming pile of horse dooky. That does not work well. Pushing this anti-vaxxing thing, as Stan is obviously doing, is bound to create some ill will.

Last edited by chuks; 18th Apr 2019 at 02:52.
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Old 18th Apr 2019, 06:26
  #410 (permalink)  
 
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P. Dickus suggested that it is time to stop feeding the troll, when I named Stan as an obvious one of those. That would be because of his use of obvious troll tactics, of course, as enumerated above. Now, there's nothing wrong with trolling, up to a point, but when it becomes playing games with important facts about human health, not just what in hell Donald Trump does with his hair, then the fun stops.
If you can point me to another thread (or more) in which I appear to be trolling then you might have some sort of point. If you can’t then I really don’t think your case stands up very well. If it eases your worry then I’ll tell you that I have only posted about my contrary thinking about vaccines here, to my limited friends on Facebook and in another forum that I post occasionally in which is even more obscure than Jet Blast on PPRuNe. I do hope that you’re not losing sleep over this, my offer to PM me is still open, but do remember I’m not a professional councillor, so any diagnosis I offer would not be legally binding.
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Old 18th Apr 2019, 07:13
  #411 (permalink)  
 
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The troll here was Straight Dave, who made a handful of masterly posts and was promptly banned. Of his attempts to stoke a fire, this is the only one still running.


Perhaps not surprisingly he failed to find a true believer in chemtrails, so triggered a brief and highly entertaining thread. In this case, even on a forum of intelligent people trained to think analytically and select options based on evidence, he found enough to start a classic, endless, pro-vs-anti spat which I assume was his intention.

But I will forgive him, it was worth it for the chemtrail thread.
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Old 18th Apr 2019, 08:42
  #412 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by double_barrel View Post
The troll here was Straight Dave, who made a handful of masterly posts and was promptly banned. Of his attempts to stoke a fire, this is the only one still running.


Perhaps not surprisingly he failed to find a true believer in chemtrails, so triggered a brief and highly entertaining thread. In this case, even on a forum of intelligent people trained to think analytically and select options based on evidence, he found enough to start a classic, endless, pro-vs-anti spat which I assume was his intention.

But I will forgive him, it was worth it for the chemtrail thread.
While this thread may have served to raise the blood pressure of some, and furrow the eyebrows of others, I think it probably is ‘more important’ than many threads on PPRuNe that generally cover the highs and lows, ins and outs of the Life of a Pilot. For me asking awkward questions and learning to think ‘outside the box’ is both interesting and entertaining, but as I said in response to yourself early in the thread, I believe it’s also vital for our well-being and even our survival.

Christians can openly state beliefs in their particular God, no one will really think twice about that, but question what happened on 9/11 or the safety of vaccines and some people get very worked up indeed. They could quite easily be a devout Christian - don’t you find that interesting? It’s not as if such religious beliefs are benign, depending on how one really thinks about their priorities - which comes first in their eyes - their religious beliefs or say forgiveness. One may assume that these would be the same thing, but sadly they are far from it with many ‘religious’ individuals.

For me there is a vast difference in the mounting evidenceagainst vaccines (despite the strong protestations of most here) and the evidenceof Israeli influence on 9/11 and the more esoteric musings of the flat earthers or chemtrailers and others. In fact I’d feel much more at ease arguing a case on 9/11 than I am where vaccines are concerned. In any event, I strongly believe that we should be able to talk about these things, no matter how offended some minority of people might get. If not on JetBlast, then where? If a forum of mostly right wing males can’t talk about these things without getting their knickers in a twist, then I truly think we have lost our way.

I think this thread has revealed a whole lot, and was easily worth being called a conspiracy theorist and even a ‘child abuser by proxy’ that should be ‘locked away’. Such views are thankfully at the more extreme end, and serve only as a warning to us. My apologies to you, as I truly think you are being straight with me, and believe it or not, I’m being straight with you. As I said, for me, the answers in that short Marr video. It appears we’re wired differently.



Last edited by Stan Woolley; 18th Apr 2019 at 09:04.
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Old 18th Apr 2019, 11:01
  #413 (permalink)  
 
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Troll does self-own. Not many dead ....

Stan, to me: "I do hope that you’re not losing sleep over this, my offer to PM me is still open, but do remember I’m not a professional councillor, so any diagnosis I offer would not be legally binding."

First, Stan, what you have crafted there is a run-on sentence with a comma splice in its middle: an abomination. Then there is this from Google:

councillor

/ˈkaʊns(ə)lə/
noun

noun: councillor; plural noun: councillors; noun: councilor; plural noun: councilors
  1. a member of a council."Councillor Ralph Lewis"

Tip:
Similar-sounding words: councillor is sometimes confused with counselor and counsellor

Stan, thanks for the offer, but I think I would seek counsel first from someone who knows the difference between a councillor and a counselor. Same with immunizations: I will stay, for the most part, with what my local GP tells me about them.







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Old 18th Apr 2019, 12:20
  #414 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Stan Woolley View Post
the mounting evidence against vaccines (despite the strong protestations of most here)
Just about sums it up.





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Old 18th Apr 2019, 12:24
  #415 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by DaveReidUK View Post
Just about sums it up.
This prompted me to post another video, thanks Dave.

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Old 18th Apr 2019, 13:09
  #416 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Stan Woolley View Post
was easily worth being called a conspiracy theorist and even a ‘child abuser by proxy’ that should be ‘locked away’.
if you don't want to be called a child abuser by proxy then just stop abusing children by proxy - it's not rocket surgery. And we lock up convicted child abusers, so if you don't like the thought of being locked up you just have to stop commiting the act.

Seemples.

PDR
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Old 18th Apr 2019, 13:20
  #417 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by PDR1 View Post
if you don't want to be called a child abuser by proxy then just stop abusing children by proxy - it's not rocket surgery. And we lock up convicted child abusers, so if you don't like the thought of being locked up you just have to stop commiting the act.

Seemples.

PDR
Call me what you want, doing so only reflects badly on you imo.
There may be a small number that agree with you, but thankfully even here on JetBlast many are more nuanced. I don’t consider you a rational person where this is concerned.

SW
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Old 18th Apr 2019, 13:45
  #418 (permalink)  
 
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Here you go Stan, some Easter weekend reading for you and any other interested parties of course: https://jme.bmj.com/content/29/1/22
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Old 18th Apr 2019, 15:03
  #419 (permalink)  
 
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Original Post by Stan Woolley:
This prompted me to post another video, thanks Dave.
Posting this video really confirms to me once again you are a closet anti-vaxxer, Your middle of the road self-description is a coverup. The video takes place on Del Bigtree's show, Del is a leading anti-vaxxer.

DISBELIEF

Top Anti-Vaxxer Says He Learned All He Needs to Know From Being a Producer on ‘Dr. Phil’ and ‘The Doctors’ Del Bigtree, one of the movement’s most visible figures, has no medical degree or training. But he did read a lot of medical material, he says, working on television.

October 2017:
Earlier this week, a notorious antivax crusader who despises Del Bigtree posted a link to a pdf he had created with the response from HHS to Del Bigtree. The crusader claimed he was able to get the response through a Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) request. The response is from Melinda Wharton, MD,

MPH, Acting Director of the National Vaccine Program Office. The letter includes responses to all of Del’s claims and accusations, every single one of them proving Del knows nothing at all about vaccine safety. All of his claims were disproven and all of his requests were denied.
HHS response to Del Bigtree is below:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Or6...RAONVyfls/view

Really sums it up Stan, you have made 105 posts on this thread starting on February 24, 2019 as of 9:20am today April 18th. None of them contain anything but anti-vaxxer viewpoints. And you think you are a middle of the road contributor to this thread?
A saying attributed to Abraham Lincoln:
“You can fool all the people some of the time, and some of the people all the time, but you cannot fool all the people all the time."
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Old 18th Apr 2019, 15:31
  #420 (permalink)  
 
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Really sums it up Stan, you have made 105 posts on this thread starting on February 24, 2019 as of 9:20am today April 18th. None of them contain anything but anti-vaxxer viewpoints. And you think you are a middle of the road contributor to this thread?
A saying attributed to Abraham Lincoln:
“You can fool all the people some of the time, and some of the people all the time, but you cannot fool all the people all the time."
Are you being deliberately dim? Of course I’m trying to present the other side of the discussion, if I wasn’t there would be no thread!!!
Everyone keeps presenting mainstream views by people associated with the WHO, The CDC, The National Vaccine Program Office and the BMJ etc. What do expect them to say!!!!

So Del Bigtree was a tv presenter, so what? Instead of listening to what his guest had to say that’s the best you can come up with!

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