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Anti Vaxxers

Old 5th Apr 2019, 10:07
  #341 (permalink)  
 
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I should know he's the Messiah; I have followed a few.

Stan, one conspiracy theory is as good as the next one, to a conspiracy theorist. You enjoy RFK, Jr., telling us about what Big Pharma and others are conspiring to get us to do, what to believe about being vaccinated. That makes you, ipso facto or Pepto Bismol, choose one, a conspiracy theorist, a crank.

Hey, me too! I believe in the Germ Theory of Disease, and that these mysterious jabs nobody really knows the facts of help keep me protected from things nobody can see. Well, not without a microscope, anyway! There you go, Stan; I believe in stuff I have no direct evidence for, just because someone not even semi-famous tells me to.

Have you ever seen a malaria parasite, Stan? It could have been all that bad air I had been breathing, that time I went down like a poleaxed steer. Yet I tamely submitted to two useless and extraordinarily painful jabs, followed by taking some mysterious tablets that I had no real idea about, just because Doc Kupa told me, "Here. These will make you well."

So I recovered, but perhaps I would have recovered all on my own. Or else I might have fallen into a coma and died. Who can say, really? Maybe next time I go with the RFK, Jr., method, just to see if some Mick lawyer is right and the doctors are wrong. In that case, Stan, expect an apology.

Last edited by chuks; 5th Apr 2019 at 12:16.
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Old 5th Apr 2019, 11:46
  #342 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by double_barrel View Post
No. If I understand you correctly, that was just a bit of natural thread drift. It's not all about you.
No I didn't watch the video. You can't keep throwing hours of video at me as a substitute for argument.

Am I open to thinking differently?!!! Very funny. I work on stuff that mostly fails (like most science). Science is mostly about investing days or years in an idea only to see it crash and burn, hopefully teaching you something as it goes. Most new drugs fail, I have colleagues who have spent their entire careers trying and so far failing to make a vaccine to one particular pathogen. You imagine I cannot imagine that I can be wrong !!!!!!!!!! Amazing. About the only thing I will not admit to being wrong about is the need for clear, logical, consistent evidence.
I could see something similar being written by Dr Brian Cox, the tv personality and physicist. Of course you can accept being wrong - WITHIN YOUR ACCEPTED SCIENTIFIC PARAMETERS! Within those, anything is acceptable, but accepting that there may be something outside that reality is simply not feasible. As long as you believe in the materialist scientific worldview, certain things are fine and others simply do not compute.

That’s why you really should watch the 3 minute video! Marr only thinks within similar limited parameters, things outside his acceptable comfort zone are not in his worldview.

I suspect that Chomsky has his own limited worldview, but within a bigger set.








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Old 5th Apr 2019, 12:24
  #343 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Stan Woolley View Post
WITHIN YOUR ACCEPTED SCIENTIFIC PARAMETERS! Within those, anything is acceptable, but accepting that there may be something outside that reality is simply not feasible. As long as you believe in the materialist scientific worldview, certain things are fine and others simply do not compute.


...he says, and then thunders off in his unicorn-drawn chariot to stoke the fires in his perpetual motion machine factory.

FYI - only crooks and morons try to make their points with youtube videos. If you want to make a point with reference to something published on youtube then extract the specific quote, explain why/how you think it supports your point (or other relevance) and then provide a reference to the supporting item. Saying "Here, watch this 37-hour youtube fantasy-fest, because it's all in there presented by Elvis using alien technology from Roswell that was found in the government locker in the world trade centre wreckage" simply gives the impression that you are a lonny-tunes conspiricy nut.

I'm not saying that you ARE a loony-times conspiricy nut, merely that you seem to be working very hard to look like one and quack like one, so I wouldn't want to trample on your democratic right to aspire to being recognised as one.
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Old 5th Apr 2019, 12:24
  #344 (permalink)  
 
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Stan, I wouldn't use Brian Cox as any good example: I know a physicist who cannot stand him! He is a particle physicist who is trying to 'elbow' his way into astrophysics. It gets pointed out to me how often Dara O'Briain has to correct Cox on live TV shows.
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Old 5th Apr 2019, 12:28
  #345 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Stan Woolley View Post

Of course you can accept being wrong - WITHIN YOUR ACCEPTED SCIENTIFIC PARAMETERS!


And what do you think those are? Give me some examples that constrain my imagination.

And don't try 'you don't believe that vaccines could ever fail/kill'. Because you would be very wrong.

My absolute, rigid, straight jacket is I will believe anything if you show me the evidence, nothing if you don't. I believe in carefully describing a hypothesis, carefully describing a means of testing it, and attempting to break the hypothesis.
And, yes indeed, the more a new idea requires the demolition of established and proven models of reality, the more evidence I will demand.


If you think that is a narrow-minded and limited straight jacket, then we have a problem; it is how technology advances and why runes, sheep's entrails, witches and hobgoblins no longer play an important role in most people's decision making.

Last edited by double_barrel; 5th Apr 2019 at 13:29.
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Old 5th Apr 2019, 13:49
  #346 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by PDR1 View Post
...he says, and then thunders off in his unicorn-drawn chariot to stoke the fires in his perpetual motion machine factory.

FYI - only crooks and morons try to make their points with youtube videos. If you want to make a point with reference to something published on youtube then extract the specific quote, explain why/how you think it supports your point (or other relevance) and then provide a reference to the supporting item. Saying "Here, watch this 37-hour youtube fantasy-fest, because it's all in there presented by Elvis using alien technology from Roswell that was found in the government locker in the world trade centre wreckage" simply gives the impression that you are a lonny-tunes conspiricy nut.

I'm not saying that you ARE a loony-times conspiricy nut, merely that you seem to be working very hard to look like one and quack like one, so I wouldn't want to trample on your democratic right to aspire to being recognised as one.
PDR
As far as I’m concerned, your mind is made up where I’m concerned PDR.
I’ve learned some of the wisest things via YouTube, and it is only your opinion that “only crooks and morons” use YouTube to make points. You must have limited abilities compared to others in this department.

On the other hand, I do love your opening sentence. You should try creative writing, you’d be good at it.
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Old 5th Apr 2019, 14:42
  #347 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Stan Woolley View Post
As far as I’m concerned, your mind is made up where I’m concerned PDR.


If by that you mean "you see me as constrained by rational thought, analysis and tested, evidence-based hypothesis" then we are in agreement. I play for the rationalist team whereas it seems you chose to play half-bake for Irrational Loony-Tunes United.

I’ve learned some of the wisest things via YouTube,
Then tell us what you have learned, explain why you think it is (a) sound and (b) relevant, explain how you have tested it and verified it from other, authoritative sources. Then you can cite the youtube piece as a supporting reference. That's how grown-ups do the whole "thinking" thing.

and it is only your opinion that “only crooks and morons” use YouTube to make points.
Yes, it's an opinion. One which was formed based on observation and evidence, tested by analysis and verified by reference to authoritative sources. To date I have seen nothing that might show the analysis to be unsound.

On the other hand, I do love your opening sentence. You should try creative writing, you’d be good at it.
Well in addition to being a chartered engineer I am technically a published author of humorous fiction, but only to the extent that some of my contributions have been included in a published work. It's not my primary role - I am an engineer. But many have lost track of the detail that engineering is (or should be) a creative field of endeavour, and I am involved in various initiatives intended to address that misunderstanding.

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Old 5th Apr 2019, 14:45
  #348 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by NoelEvans View Post
Stan, I wouldn't use Brian Cox as any good example: I know a physicist who cannot stand him! He is a particle physicist who is trying to 'elbow' his way into astrophysics. It gets pointed out to me how often Dara O'Briain has to correct Cox on live TV shows.
On the contrary Noel, I think he’s perfect.
He uses a great word for insulting his opponents - nobbers! I went to see him at Birmingham NEC, the presentation was good, but rather predictable. Sadly, he didn’t use ‘nobbers’ that night! The ideas that he favours, and those of mainstream people like him, are becoming stale - while I think the the less conventional thinkers are gaining ground. I quite like him- sorry.
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Old 5th Apr 2019, 16:50
  #349 (permalink)  
 
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[QUOTE=double_barrel;10439711]
And don't try 'you don't believe that vaccines could ever fail/kill'. Because you would be very wrong.
I didn’t think that. Although it may be a harsh reality, that is well within your comfort zone.

My absolute, rigid, straight jacket is I will believe anything if you show me the evidence, nothing if you don't. I believe in carefully describing a hypothesis, carefully describing a means of testing it, and attempting to break the hypothesis.

And, yes indeed, the more a new idea requires the demolition of established and proven models of reality, the more evidence I will demand.
Ah, the old extraordinary claims demand extraordinary evidence ploy from Carl Sagan. That’s convenient, isn’t it?

The thing is, I don’t think that the evidence that I have presented has been taken very seriously. I accept that you think like a scientist, and I don’t. You have certain protocols that you follow, and anything that doesn’t fit is unceremoniously tossed out. There is plenty anecdotal type evidence, that is not acceptable to scientists. I believe that may be a flaw in the scientific protocol. It also allows problems like Andrew Wakefield to be relatively easily dealt with. As soon as he is named as a ‘baddie’, and disgraced in the public eye, any good that he may have done can be thrown out with the bath water. He is bad, a villain, don’t trust the bastard! The podcast that I presented talks about his case, and why he was struck off. You jumped around it, rather than choking down any judgement and listening to what was said. In fact, there is something I don’t trust in Wakefield, but that might just be the propaganda I’ve read and heard about him. I’d like to talk to him. I’d love to know the truth. You seem to dig for ways to undermine the people I present, you also want to dig into the details. I know that’s where the devil may be found, but to counter that there are ‘forests and trees’. Others seem to rubbish them immediately, that’s just daft.

Interestingly, Boofhead made a lot of great points early on in the thread, but then let himself down imo when he started complaining about immigrants and left wing politics and plenty more besides. But that does not and should not take away any points that I agree with him on. There is or should be room for all kinds of thinking.

By the way, I particularly liked one thing he said, which was conveniently glossed over as far as I could see: “If the vaccines did work, why would you be afraid of people with the disease? You should be immune, right?”

But the answer is far more nuanced than that, probably more nuanced than any of us can presently understand. For that reason I think we ought to tread a little more carefully.

As I keep saying - it’s not really about vaccines or other conspiracies - it’s about mental attitudes.
I can just about hear Chuks choking on his rohwurst as he reaches for his iPad!

I accept that I’m in the fortunate position where I have the time to listen and read a lot - it’s now my full time pastime. Most people my age or younger have to work for a living. I count my blessings that I’m still around, and able to discuss this stuff, which may be more important than we think.

If you think that is a narrow-minded and limited straight jacket, then we have a problem; it is how technology advances and why runes, sheep's entrails, witches and hobgoblins no longer play an important role in most people's decision making.
Sheep’s entrails and hobgoblins notwithstanding, I’m not sure that mankind’s present thinking is working that well. So maybe we should be less hasty to judge people that we disagree with, and try being open to more ideas.



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Old 5th Apr 2019, 19:19
  #350 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Stan Woolley View Post
The thing is, I don’t think that the evidence that I have presented has been taken very seriously.


I have not devoted hours to following the videos you have posted, and I have no intention of doing so. But I have made a genuine and serious attempt to get to nub of a particular point you are making and I have approached with a completely open mind. I am not aware of a single point that has been properly described and that has stood the test of simple factual accuracy. I look on it as part of my responsibility to promote public understanding of science ;-)

Originally Posted by Stan Woolley View Post
I accept that you think like a scientist, and I don’t. You have certain protocols that you follow, and anything that doesn’t fit is unceremoniously tossed out.
What do you mean by that? The 'protocols' are incredibly simple. Anything that has been tested and rejected is indeed 'thrown out', or at least put aside in the 'its not quite like that' pile, possibly to be brought back in in a different form later. What would you propose as an alternative?

Originally Posted by Stan Woolley View Post
There is plenty anecdotal type evidence, that is not acceptable to scientists. I believe that may be a flaw in the scientific protocol.
That's the same point. You need to think it through. What do you mean by anecdotal evidence? how could we treat it better? I don't know where you can go with 'using' anecdotal evidence. I certainly would not want to use it to decide whether to vaccinate or not. There are plenty of examples of medical anecdotal 'evidence' for a particular procedure that has been used for decades but when tested was shown to be worse than doing nothing. And I don't just mean leeches! Quite recently some common practices for head injury and stroke, that seemed logical, were tested and shown to be worse than worthless - they actually reduced survival. While other 'anecdotal' procedures were shown to be beneficial and they moved from anecdote to supported by evidence and so were used.

I don't know about you but I want my treatment to be based on objective evidence not anecdote, or unsupported whim. Anecdote is sometimes right, but very often wrong. Don't you think we should try to separate those?

In a sense all science starts as anecdote, or crazy idea, but has to be tested in order to be useful. You may not like that, but please suggest a rational alternative.
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Old 5th Apr 2019, 20:19
  #351 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by PDR1 View Post

Then tell us what you have learned, explain why you think it is (a) sound and (b) relevant, explain how you have tested it and verified it from other, authoritative sources. Then you can cite the youtube piece as a supporting reference. That's how grown-ups do the whole "thinking" thing.
I think watching a video can sometimes tell us a lot more than the written word or listening. After all, it’s well known that over 90% is non-verbal. A picture paints a thousand words sort of thing. I prefer watching a video of someone to get an overall feeling for the person. Watching that 3minute clip of Marr, for example, I can see the confusion in his face. I have loads of examples. With subjective topics, there’s often no one correct answer, but being an engineer, I doubt that you have much sympathy for that! Have you considered joining 9/11 Architects & Engineers ? I’m joking!!!

I read about some famous scientist who’d been thinking deeply about some problem for weeks or more, when the answer came to him as he stepped onto a bus when it was the last thing he was thinking about. How do you explain Paul McCartney hearing ‘Yesterday’ in a dream? Neils Bohr dreaming about the structure of the atom and Dmitri Mendeleev dreaming about the periodic table? Were they all grown - ups?

I’m not about to spend hours writing about something I have learned, then comparing it with authoritative sources. Only to have you rubbish it anyway! Often there are no sources, but I have experienced what he or she’s talking about, and it’s a Eureka moment.

Well in addition to being a chartered engineer I am technically a published author of humorous fiction, but only to the extent that some of my contributions have been included in a published work. It's not my primary role - I am an engineer. But many have lost track of the detail that engineering is (or should be) a creative field of endeavour, and I am involved in various initiatives intended to address that misunderstanding.

PDR
Good for you. Creativity is an important part of living, the only creative side that I think I might have had was as a musician. I played the bass, but sadly no longer can. It’s interesting to me that you wrote “It’s not my primary role - I am an engineer”. What would your primary role be if suddenly being an engineer was no longer available? Say you could no longer write either. It’s an interesting if rather frightening proposition, don’t you think? That’s what I’ve been dealing with for the past eight years, I’ve had to reevaluate my life. Like your ‘I am an engineer’ I used to say ‘I am a pilot’. We associate strongly with our job. I’m very fortunate that I am able to type with my left hand, for having iPads too, and much more besides. I am very grateful for science. It’s been a life saver, not literally in my case, not eight years ago anyway. It probably has been in my past.
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Old 6th Apr 2019, 03:41
  #352 (permalink)  
 
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Good question!

If vaccines work, why be afraid of someone with a disease?

If bulletproof vests work, why be afraid of being shot at?

How do you know which strain of a disease someone is carrying? I get a flu shot every autumn, but that is "those people" trying to guess which strain is most prevalent. The shot does not protect against all strains of the flu. If someone is ill with the wrong strain, and he passes it to you, then that would be sort of like catching a bullet to the face when you are wearing a vest protecting your torso.

Then there is the question of "personality." An anti-vaxxer is likely to be carrying more than just an infection. There's a high probability of being invited to share your thoughts on whether "they" faked the moon landings; whether Hitler escaped to Argentina, or perhaps to that secret Nazi base on the moon .... This is when carrying a phone and faking an incoming call is a good idea. "Sorry, I have to take this. It's my parole officer .... "

https://www.vox.com/science-and-heal...unity-vaccines

Last edited by chuks; 12th Apr 2019 at 11:33.
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Old 14th Apr 2019, 22:02
  #353 (permalink)  
 
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Whatever the issue there will always be a group of people who go against the mainstream just because it seems cool. Look at flat earthers.
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Old 15th Apr 2019, 01:40
  #354 (permalink)  
 
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There is plenty anecdotal type evidence, that is not acceptable to scientists.
Stan, it's an established fact that every single person ever diagnosed with autism had consumed vast quantities of dihydrogen monoxide prior to their diagnosis.
Anecdotal evidences therefore says we should ban dihydrogen monoxide, right?

Serious people can tell the difference between 'correlation' and 'causation'. Conspiracy theorist's not so much.
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Old 15th Apr 2019, 01:42
  #355 (permalink)  
 
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I'm not sure about pursuit of "cool" but it certainly seems that there is a percentage of people who prefer to prioritise the danger of compliance over the demonstrable benefits of the same.
These are the people who fear being trapped unconscious in a burning car by a seat-belt rather than seeing the statistical advantage of surviving a collision by wearing one.

The ethical question should not revolve around their choice to ignore the danger to themselves but the consequences of their stance toward the well-being of others.

Madagascar’s largest ever measles outbreak has killed more than 1,200 people
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Old 15th Apr 2019, 02:11
  #356 (permalink)  
 
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Here in Germany there are now moves towards compulsory vaccination. For now it's not compulsory, so that Germany has one of the lowest rates of vaccination, below the recommended 95%, and well below in some places, particularly in some cities.
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Old 15th Apr 2019, 07:28
  #357 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by chuks View Post
Here in Germany there are now moves towards compulsory vaccination. For now it's not compulsory, so that Germany has one of the lowest rates of vaccination, below the recommended 95%, and well below in some places, particularly in some cities.
This is more the type of thing I’m interested in, thoughtful application rather that mindless obeyance.

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Old 15th Apr 2019, 08:19
  #358 (permalink)  
 
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Really ???

Dr. Paul Thomas: A rising star in the antivaccine movement
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Old 15th Apr 2019, 08:31
  #359 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by DaveReidUK View Post
Yes really!
Once again, you’ve gone straight for evidence to debunk the man, rather than watch what the video and listen to what he has to say. He’s far from anti-vaxx.

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Old 15th Apr 2019, 08:45
  #360 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by DaveReidUK View Post
What an interesting article, thank you for posting it. What particularly jumped out to me was this:

‘Besides his recommendation in his book on vaccines for antivaccine parents not to advertise their children’s unvaccinated status in order to allow them to “hide in the herd,”’

So, in a nutshell, it’s acceptable for the majority to take the ‘risk’ in order to give the anti vaxxer minority the ‘herd’ protection? Therefore, that’s a tacit acknowledgment that there are benefits to inoculation.

As soon as there’s an outbreak that results in either severe complications or, sadly a fatality, a lot of their principles will probably go out of the window in the scramble to get immunity.
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