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Anti Vaxxers

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Anti Vaxxers

Old 27th Mar 2019, 14:30
  #201 (permalink)  
 
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I had the Salk vaccine for polio as a kid. Big syringe and dark red vaccine. When I started travelling a lot for work, the young nurse doing vaccinations at the GP surgery didn't believe that at one time, the vaccine was injected! I was told by a doctor friend that the cholera vaccinations were pretty well useless: one of the guys in the UK group to an ITU meeting in India had the cholera vaccine but still came down with cholera.... I expect Jenner turns in his grave when people like RFK start spouting......
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Old 27th Mar 2019, 15:41
  #202 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by radeng View Post
I had the Salk vaccine for polio as a kid. Big syringe and dark red vaccine. When I started travelling a lot for work, the young nurse doing vaccinations at the GP surgery didn't believe that at one time, the vaccine was injected! I was told by a doctor friend that the cholera vaccinations were pretty well useless: one of the guys in the UK group to an ITU meeting in India had the cholera vaccine but still came down with cholera.... I expect Jenner turns in his grave when people like RFK start spouting......
Salk? Me too. And then Sabin - syrup on a sugar cube: much better.

Most of the following is anecdotal - not medical advice in any way.

I was also advised about diminished efficacy of cholera shots (not an anecdote); after 20 something years of getting cholera shots.

I had my last round of two typhoid shots curtailed when I showed a slight reaction (rash) to the first injection.
This also after after 20 something years of getting typhoid shots.

Commonly encountered advice regarding anti-malarials is not to bother. Rumoured to be out of favour with medics who routinely treat malaria as supposed to mask symptoms making diagnosis and subsequent treatment more difficult.
Especially useless in S-E Asia where malaria strains have developed resistance to chloroquine.
And they taste like dog poop.

My last round of shots (3) was for the eastern Siberian strain of tick-borne encephalitis. Not dribbling in my porridge yet.
But might have if a tundra-tick were to get a hold of me.
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Old 27th Mar 2019, 15:46
  #203 (permalink)  
 
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Here’s yesterday’s Richie Allen show, which hopes to keep discussion about the subject open. He is rather animated because some nemesis of his had been on the Jeremy Vine show earlier. I think it is unhealthy to close down conversation.

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Old 27th Mar 2019, 15:59
  #204 (permalink)  
 
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Ha. Richie Allen is either a massive troll or a complete idiot. He jumps on every single conspiracy bandwagon. The time he got completely owned by a pilot who he had brought on the program to support his view about chemtrails is brilliant. He's a moon landing denier, David Icke apologist and anti-vaxxer. Try and argue politely with him on social media and you get blocked.
Ignore.
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Old 27th Mar 2019, 17:04
  #205 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by TURIN View Post
Ha. Richie Allen is either a massive troll or a complete idiot. He jumps on every single conspiracy bandwagon. The time he got completely owned by a pilot who he had brought on the program to support his view about chemtrails is brilliant. He's a moon landing denier, David Icke apologist and anti-vaxxer. Try and argue politely with him on social media and you get blocked.
Ignore.
Thatís not what I see, I have been showing an interest in his shows for a few months now, and I havenít heard him talk about either the moon landings or chemtrails. Why do people get so upset about things like this? I am certain that most chemtrail theorists are misguided, and have really not the faintest idea if the moon landings were faked. I wouldnít bet my house on it either way. As well as having some unusual ideas David Icke talks a lot of sense about a fair number of topics. Is he harmless? Is listening to Jeremy Vine harmless? I think heís very fair to guests, he plays devils advocate when required and allows them to speak. Maybe you donít like his language, but to me thatís no biggie, heís not always so wound up as he appears in this video. What he says about mainstream journalists is true! They donít question things any longer.

Heís no Alex Jones type, so I think your bias is obvious here. Putting people like him on ignore is a sure way to get people like Trump elected sooner or later. Or maybe you were happy with those Presidents before him?

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Old 27th Mar 2019, 18:32
  #206 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by WingNut60 View Post
Commonly encountered advice regarding anti-malarials is not to bother.
That is usually my advice, as long as you work hard to minimise exposure with mozzy repellants and bed nets, take local advice and treat the minute you suspect malaria.

All malaria prophylactics can potentially cause problems - just last week a colleague suffered significant adverse effects- especially silly as she was in a place with zero risk but UK travel advice does not seem to have a resolution finer than a whole country! If only we had a vaccine.
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Old 28th Mar 2019, 04:05
  #207 (permalink)  
 
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When I workemd in PNGFnwe were given Chloraquin, which we knew to be a suppressant, not a preventative. Biggest problem was for people who came back to Oz, stopped the Chloraquin and came down with Malaria. Australian doctors wouldn't believe they'd had it.
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Old 28th Mar 2019, 05:51
  #208 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Hydromet View Post
Biggest problem was for people who came back to Oz, stopped the Chloraquin and came down with Malaria. Australian doctors wouldn't believe they'd had it.
Yep, exactly the same for UK-Africa travelers. I had one colleague who absolutely clearly had a low level malaria in the UK - all the symptoms, perfect timing, but no parasites were seen on microscopy so the medics refused to treat! Eventually I carried some Artemesin from Kenya, she self medicated and was instantly cured. It is always a problem that UK medics are very reluctant to treat without a positive diagnosis. In places where malaria is common, malaria treatment is used if there is any possibility, you could be dead before a positive diagnosis - but at least we will know what you died of!
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Old 28th Mar 2019, 13:03
  #209 (permalink)  
 
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We had a pilot go from Lagos, Nigeria to Wichita, Kansas with what he thought was a bad hang-over. Then he had to go from FlightSafety straight to the hospital, where they treated him first for typhus. Turned out it was malaria, so that three weeks later he was dead.

Do take care to have a way to inform health professionals of where you have been and what sort of diseases you might be suffering from. You just do not get many cases of malaria in Middle America, so that they did not think of that in good time; I guess the guy himself was unconscious, so that he could not tell the doctors that he'd just arrived from the "White Man's Grave."

I did an air ambulance flight for a patient with a fever of 105 F. who was in a deep coma, completely unresponsive. I think that was cerebral malaria, and I don't think he made it.

Cerebral malaria can kill you in just a few days, and even if you survive it can turn you into a vegetable. We used to carry around a packet of three big, white tablets, to be taken only in case you fell ill. The stuff had wicked side-effects, so that it was not to be used as a prophylactic. Another thing is, as noted here, to wait for the blood test before taking anything. You can end up with a negative test when you still are positive for malaria. The disease can hide in your liver, or so I have been told.
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Old 28th Mar 2019, 14:17
  #210 (permalink)  
 
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WingNut

And they taste like dog poop.
You've tried dog poop for comparison purposes?
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Old 28th Mar 2019, 14:32
  #211 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by radeng View Post
WingNut



You've tried dog poop for comparison purposes?
Haa...I was waiting for that.
In all probability I have, at some time or other, but never deliberately.
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Old 28th Mar 2019, 15:47
  #212 (permalink)  
 
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A first hand description of measles and a plea to vaccinate:
https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...the-news-again
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Old 28th Mar 2019, 18:28
  #213 (permalink)  
 
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Before anyone says that RFK jr is a fraud, a liar or anything else, show me some evidence. The presentation he makes here surely proves that the CDC are anything but trustworthy.

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Old 29th Mar 2019, 07:26
  #214 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by double_barrel View Post
That is usually my advice, as long as you work hard to minimise exposure with mozzy repellants and bed nets, take local advice and treat the minute you suspect malaria.

All malaria prophylactics can potentially cause problems - just last week a colleague suffered significant adverse effects- especially silly as she was in a place with zero risk but UK travel advice does not seem to have a resolution finer than a whole country! If only we had a vaccine.
Pretty sure whatever side effect your colleague had was listed as possible side effect of the product.
iíll be curious to know the exact area you call as zero risk where she carried on taking it. Sound like a stupid thing to do yes.

In meanwhile, I will continue to take my anti malaria pills when exposed into risky areas , thank you very much!
if you donít want to put your seat belt and drive only at 20km/h, thatís your problem. Donít cry mama if you get ramed by someone going faster (someone as a nastily loaded mosquito for those who didnít get the analogy)

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Old 29th Mar 2019, 08:18
  #215 (permalink)  
 
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Stan, I just looked him up, but I can't find anything online that shows RFK, Jr., as having any medical qualifications at all. You would expect him to have been trained in immunology or something similar in order to give these speeches about vaccines and all. Does he have a medical degree that I somehow missed?

Put it this way: when I stick my oar into some discussion about aviation, or else English as she is written, there I have some formal qualifications, along with practical experience, that I can fall back on.

It's not that I always get it right, whatever I want to say, but at least I do have some training and experience in those two fields. Here it would seem that RFK, Jr., has none of that at all when it comes to immunology. In fact, I think anyone who wants to put in a week or so of ten-hour days Googling can match or exceed his level of knowledge, particularly since he only seems to know one side of the argument.

I do not agree at all with this pseudo-reasonable notion that we should never shut off discussion about anything. Some notions are obvious bunkum and easily dismissed.
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Old 29th Mar 2019, 09:50
  #216 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by ehwatezedoing View Post

Pretty sure whatever side effect your colleague had was listed as possible side effect of the product.
iíll be curious to know the exact area you call as zero risk where she carried on taking it. Sound like a stupid thing to do yes.
Indeed, known and fairly frequent adverse affects. She was in Addis Ababa. There has been no known transmission of malaria in Addis, ever. It is too high and too cold for Anopheles mosquitos. But if you go to a UK GP or travel clinic and say "I am going to Ethiopia what should I take", the list will include anti-malarials. I am always hesitant to attempt to over-ride the medical advice that visiting colleagues have been given, so this is not an uncommon situation.
Originally Posted by ehwatezedoing View Post
In meanwhile, I will continue to take my anti malaria pills when exposed into risky areas , thank you very much!
if you donít want to put your seat belt and drive only at 20km/h, thatís your problem. Donít cry mama if you get ramed by someone going faster (someone as a nastily loaded mosquito for those who didnít get the analogy)
Everything is a balance of risks and benefits, when there is no risk of malaria, there is no benefit from anti-malarials. To apply you seat belt analogy, it's like wearing seat belts in an aircraft which is on the ground and refueling. I am almost constantly in areas for which UK standard medical advice would be to take anti-malarials, but that advice takes no account of local variation in challenge and is very frequently wrong. When I know I will be in a place with exceptional risk of exposure, I pay attention to the local conditions, avoid exposure to mozzies, I have rapid test kits and drugs available and and treat myself if there is a possibility that I am infected. It helps that I am usually surrounded by parasitologists and medics, you would be amazed how gung-ho such people are with their own risks!
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Old 29th Mar 2019, 10:01
  #217 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by chuks View Post
Stan, I just looked him up, but I can't find anything online that shows RFK, Jr., as having any medical qualifications at all. You would expect him to have been trained in immunology or something similar in order to give these speeches about vaccines and all. Does he have a medical degree that I somehow missed?

Put it this way: when I stick my oar into some discussion about aviation, or else English as she is written, there I have some formal qualifications, along with practical experience, that I can fall back on.

It's not that I always get it right, whatever I want to say, but at least I do have some training and experience in those two fields. Here it would seem that RFK, Jr., has none of that at all when it comes to immunology. In fact, I think anyone who wants to put in a week or so of ten-hour days Googling can match or exceed his level of knowledge, particularly since he only seems to know one side of the argument.

I do not agree at all with this pseudo-reasonable notion that we should never shut off discussion about anything. Some notions are obvious bunkum and easily dismissed.


It may be so, but are you really saying that this video is in that category? Even if he was medically qualified, what does that prove? Say he was a GP, would that make any difference? Imo all it might do is make him less open minded! How many people really know about vaccines? Would I, as an ex pilot (Tre), have intimate knowledge of aerodynamics? Would aerodynamicists know about SOPís? Of which there are numerous varieties. No, they wouldnít.

If I was trying to prove my innocence in court when say I had been accused of recklessness in an aeroplane, say Iíd decided to land when the sop was to go-around, would I prefer a sharp pilot defending me or a sharp lawyer?

Dont you think itís possible that he has advisors that are Ďsuitably qualifiedí? Heís a wealthy man. What might his motive be?

Rather than picking faults in RFK, please try replying to the points he makes in his presentation!
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Old 29th Mar 2019, 10:08
  #218 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Stan Woolley View Post

How many people really know about vaccines?

I do. If I was to describe my skillset in one word it would be immunogenetics - that's what I did a PhD in many years ago and an area in which I been actively involved in research ever since.

When I see the dangerous, ignorant [email protected] from the anti vaxxers, I feel about the same as you would feel when as a pilot you are accused of laying chemtrails. Although the ant-vaxx crap is actually much more stupid and dangerous than that, because its damage extends beyond mere stupidity to loss of life.


Originally Posted by Stan Woolley View Post
Rather than picking faults in RFK, please try replying to the points he makes in his presentation!
That's like asking a pilot to give a serious and detailed response to some random youtube video by flat earthers or chemtrail nuts.
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Old 29th Mar 2019, 10:14
  #219 (permalink)  
 
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Without wishing to digress too much, many years ago, I knew an elderly chap who had had a military posting to Malaysia in his youth. Every so often, he would suddenly get severe shivers, sweat profusely and ache all over - very much like a severe dose of flu. He always maintained that this was latent malaria that he had contracted as a young man. Once infected, does it really stay inert in a human and then flare up periodically?
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Old 29th Mar 2019, 10:17
  #220 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Stan Woolley View Post

Heís a wealthy man. What might his motive be?

Poltical ambition, cashing in on the growing anti Vaxx movement, raising his personal profile etc etc
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