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Is there anybody hiding there in the dark?

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Is there anybody hiding there in the dark?

Old 11th Jan 2019, 09:02
  #21 (permalink)  
 
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I only think they come here just to add to their collection of species. Humans must be really at the bottom of the list as they swear a lot and p!ss all over the place.

Maybe that's why SETI calls don't get answered. Perhaps there's already an intergalactic spam filter in place just for that sort of thing.
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Old 11th Jan 2019, 09:09
  #22 (permalink)  
 
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Arthur C. Clark had some interesting thoughts on this.

https://www.goodreads.com/author/quo...rthur_C_Clarke
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Old 11th Jan 2019, 09:14
  #23 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Parapunter View Post
Drake's equation dates to 1961. Drake took Fermi's paradox & attempted to quantify it. One of the great weaknesses & also strengths with Drake is you can amend the variables to construct an answer either way. Unsurprisingly, people do.
Drake's Equation is an interesting conjecture. But ultimately it is an attempt to extrapolate a trend from a single point. Which unfortunately is a logical fallacy.

The only thing we can say with certainty is that it happened here so the same thing could happen somewhere else. But how often? Of the many "guessed" terms in the Drake Equation it only takes one of those to approach zero and the Universe could be a very lonely place indeed.
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Old 11th Jan 2019, 09:44
  #24 (permalink)  
 
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A sober answer to Fermi's "Where's everybody" is that no civilization had last enough (yet) to contact another civilization.

Indeed, an advanced civilization could explore our whole galaxy using self-replicating probes in a relatively short time, like, less than a million years. The idea is simple: a drone arrives in a remote star system and replicates itself in thousands using materials from asteroid belts or planets, etc. Some drones explore the start system, others continue their voyage to other star systems. The galaxy would be full of these drones in just a few million years. Some drones could travel to other galaxies and initiate their exponential growth there.
That's definitely not the way how things are according to our observations.
Given our existence, we have no reason to think that we are exceptional in any way. It's highly probable that civilizations like us are common. However, no starfaring civilization emerged yet as far as we know. This leaves us the only possibility that we did not pass the great filter yet and our extinction is a likely outcome of the years to come (hello, coal miners, steelworkers, and climate change deniers).

So, as a summary, I think that Fermi's paradox could be explained like this: "both statements are true". Yes, we're not alone in the universe, there are other civilizations. Yes, we are alone, because every civilization lives in its own solitary confinement.

Does it matter to a prisoner who is going to spend his whole life in a locked cell that actually he lives in a building full of other prisoners and there's no chance that he will ever meet anyone else?
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Old 11th Jan 2019, 10:15
  #25 (permalink)  
 
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Yes, the variables are knowable to varying extents & some are just punts, frankly, Hence it's manipulable as you point out. And agree, its a single point that we start from. Unfortunately, being stuck on a rock in the outer arms of the unfashionable end of the milky way, there's no other starting point available!
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Old 11th Jan 2019, 10:28
  #26 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Dont Hang Up View Post
Drake's Equation is an interesting conjecture. But ultimately it is an attempt to extrapolate a trend from a single point. Which unfortunately is a logical fallacy.

The only thing we can say with certainty is that it happened here so the same thing could happen somewhere else. But how often? Of the many "guessed" terms in the Drake Equation it only takes one of those to approach zero and the Universe could be a very lonely place indeed.
Exactly. With n=1 there is not much we can say. But the moment we get a 2nd independent example of life or intelligence, everything changes.....
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Old 11th Jan 2019, 13:45
  #27 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Parapunter View Post
Cox really harshes my buzz on that one. I've read a few Jim Al Khalili things on SETI as well & his view is similar. The nuance of it aiui is life arises spontaneously wherever conditions allow but rarely, for all sorts of reasons, gets going to intelligence as we would define it.

On Fermi, it's the other way round. Fermi came up with his paradox in 1950. Drake's equation dates to 1961. Drake took Fermi's paradox & attempted to quantify it. One of the great weaknesses & also strengths with Drake is you can amend the variables to construct an answer either way. Unsurprisingly, people do.
You are right. There Fermi paradox predates the Drake Equation. I did mean to say that but my post suggested the wrong way round as you say.

Isn't science a wonderful thing. I am absolutely fascinated by the changing theories about the processes that could have formed our very early Universe especially that it is now though that the Big Bang may well have been just one of possibly an infinite number of phases of our Universe and how Eternal Inflation could be giving rise to new Universes.
Spell binding stuff.
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Old 11th Jan 2019, 15:13
  #28 (permalink)  
 
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Isn't science a wonderful thing. I am absolutely fascinated by the changing theories about the processes that could have formed our very early Universe especially that it is now though that the Big Bang may well have been just one of possibly an infinite number of phases of our Universe and how Eternal Inflation could be giving rise to new Universes.
Spell binding stuff.
What was there before the first Inflation ? What formed the elements that manifested the universe ? What formed the ether that it took place in ?
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Old 11th Jan 2019, 16:08
  #29 (permalink)  
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Ani fule kno that 'life' is a chemical reaction occurring on a Petri dish.
What you are experiencing is but a dream (albeit a vivid dream that mirrors reality).
All 'experiences' are figments of an imagination - virtual reality if you like . . .
The question is - who is the creature in the lab coat?
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Old 11th Jan 2019, 16:48
  #30 (permalink)  
 
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Inside everybody's hiding something. ()

Dido Armstrong
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Old 11th Jan 2019, 16:58
  #31 (permalink)  
 
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When they contact us, will it be on an Android?
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Old 11th Jan 2019, 17:39
  #32 (permalink)  
 
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Who creates reality?
Who is afraid of whom?

There must be someone who knows the answer.
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Old 12th Jan 2019, 02:19
  #33 (permalink)  
 
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I am not very scientificly minded but isn't a radio signal a pulse of energy?If so then would a radio signal lose some energy travelling through space?So if this signal is a few million light years old then there must have been a pretty strong amount of energy when it started?
Can it not be decoded?
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Old 12th Jan 2019, 03:34
  #34 (permalink)  
 
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Jonksters thereom addresses why there has been no contact from intelligent life out there.

It states that on any planet where sentient, intelligent lifeforms evolve, those lifeforms create increasingly sophisticated technology and ultimately as part of this development, they create a version of the internet.

At this point more and more of their time is spent online, posting cute photos of their pets, arguing about politics and grammar and debating where all the other intelligent life forms are and why they haven't dropped by yet, .

The civilisation then quietly disappears into virtual oblivion and kitten memes because they find they prefer the virtual world to the real one and forget to actually do anything, like contact other lifeforms etc..
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Old 12th Jan 2019, 18:40
  #35 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by SpringHeeledJack View Post
What was there before the first Inflation ? What formed the elements that manifested the universe ? What formed the ether that it took place in ?
The theory is that Inflation may be eternal.
The answer to your second question is known but far too complex to cover here.
Don't understand your last question.
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Old 12th Jan 2019, 18:57
  #36 (permalink)  
 
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But in the beginning, before there was ANYTHING whatsoever, not even the ether (the mysterious substance once thought to suffuse the universe and be the medium that propagated light ) existed. How did THAT come into existence and then became eternal ? Some might say God, but how did God come into existence and so on ? I feel our human minds are not equipped to digest the nothingness before somethingness.
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Old 12th Jan 2019, 18:58
  #37 (permalink)  
 
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I’d be interested to see in what physical form these messagers are?

Generally, according to sci fi (of which I’m a great fan) the majority of extra terrestrials are basically humanoid. Even the creature in the Alien series walked upright on two legs and had an identifiable head and torso. The Daleks were a bit more out there; without their metal shell, they were portrayed as rather jellyfish like. In Star Trek, residents of otherworldly planets even were even right on fashion trends with mini skirts and false eyelashes.

As a child, I seem to remember a space probe being launched with a diagram of what a human being looked liked and our planet’s relative position in the Solar System. At the time I was concerned this wasn’t a good idea as we might be inviting the wrong kind of visitor.
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Old 13th Jan 2019, 11:43
  #38 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by BehindBlueEyes View Post
I was concerned this wasnít a good idea as we might be inviting the wrong kind of visitor.
"Yumm! meat . . . "
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Old 13th Jan 2019, 12:56
  #39 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by SpringHeeledJack View Post
But in the beginning, before there was ANYTHING whatsoever, not even the ether (the mysterious substance once thought to suffuse the universe and be the medium that propagated light ) existed. How did THAT come into existence and then became eternal ? Some might say God, but how did God come into existence and so on ? I feel our human minds are not equipped to digest the nothingness before somethingness.
You are exactly right. We must get away from thinking that the Universe and Quantum Physics (for example) ought to be there to be understood by humans.

We are beginning to get a level of QM understanding that Photons can become Electrons and visa versa and that they can pop in and out of existence.
Our human minds need re-calibration to even begin to comprehend how such things are.

When you say 'in the beginning' that infers time, another nebulous concept.
My understanding is that eternal means eternal. Something else we struggle to understand.

By the way, light (photon) doesn't need anything to move through. Equally, we now know that space is absolutely not a vacuum. It is full of fields - gravitational or electromagnetic for example.

You have my utmost respect for trying to make sense of it all. But as I say, it doesn't have to make sense.
Keep on thinking my friend and most importantly reading the latest books.
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Old 13th Jan 2019, 16:30
  #40 (permalink)  
 
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There is a saying that nature abhors a vacuum. Investigation at the quantum particle level reveals that this is essentially true. Virtual particles are constantly appearing and disappearing in the absence of anything else in the vicinity. Some of them hang around, most don't. This implies that as the universe expands and becomes sufficiently tenuous, new matter comes into existence to fill in the gaps. We are restricted in our ability to view the universe but even the bit we can see is large enough to make it improbable that we are the only intelligent lefeform to have evolved. In an essentially infinite universe, there must also mathematically be an infinite number of planets where life has or will arise. The sheer distances involved create extreme difficulties in interstellar communication. Bear in mind we have only been aware and capable of receiving extraterrestrial radio signals for the last 70 years and for most of that time we haven't really been seriously searching for alien transmissions. Given a sufficiently long and detailed search, it is inevitable that signs of other intelligent civilisations will be found. The chances increase exponentially as equipment improves to widen the search radius from Earth. The only real question is whether we will recognise alien transmissions when we find them.
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