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UK Politics Hamsterwheel MkII

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UK Politics Hamsterwheel MkII

Old 21st Dec 2018, 10:45
  #1781 (permalink)  
 
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I know mate. It's all just project fear.
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Old 21st Dec 2018, 19:42
  #1782 (permalink)  
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Looks like the Withdrawal agreement is meeting opposition in the European Parliament as well....

https://www.politico.eu/article/anto...xit-oversight/

Antonio Tajani seeks greater role for MEPs in Brexit oversight
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Old 21st Dec 2018, 19:55
  #1783 (permalink)  
 
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An interesting view from outside of the UK and the EU...

Itís pretty hard for Britainís friends, here in Australia, to make sense of the mess thatís being made of Brexit. The referendum result was perhaps the biggest-ever vote of confidence in the United Kingdom, its past and its future. But the British establishment doesnít seem to share that confidence and instead looks desperate to cut a deal, even if that means staying under the rule of Brussels. Looking at this from abroad, itís baffling: the country that did the most to bring democracy into the modern world might yet throw away the chance to take charge of its own destiny.

Letís get one thing straight: a negotiation that youíre not prepared to walk away from is not a negotiation ó itís surrender. Itís all give and no get. When David Cameron tried to renegotiate Britainís EU membership, he was sent packing because Brussels judged (rightly) that heíd never actually back leaving. And since then, Brussels has made no real concessions to Theresa May because it judges (rightly, it seems) that sheís desperate for whatever deal she can get.

The EUís palpable desire to punish Britain for leaving vindicates the Brexit project. Its position, now, is that thereís only one Ďdealí on offer, whereby the UK retains all of the burdens of EU membership but with no say in setting the rules. The EU seems to think that Britain will go along with this because itís terrified of no deal. Or, to put it another way, terrified of the prospect of its own independence.

But even after two years of fearmongering and vacillation, itís not too late for robust leadership to deliver the Brexit that people voted for. Itís time for Britain to announce what it will do if the EU canít make an acceptable offer by March 29 next year ó and how it would handle no deal. Freed from EU rules, Britain would automatically revert to world trade, using rules agreed by the World Trade Organization. It works pretty well for Australia. So why on earth would it not work just as well for the worldís fifth-largest economy?

A world trade Brexit lets Britain set its own rules. It can say, right now, that it will not impose any tariff or quota on European produce and would recognise all EU product standards. That means no border controls for goods coming from Europe to Britain. You donít need to negotiate this: just do it. If Europe knows whatís in its own best interests, it would fully reciprocate in order to maintain entirely free trade and full mutual recognition of standards right across Europe.

Next, the UK should declare that Europeans already living here should have the right to remain permanently ó and, of course, become British citizens if they wish. This should be a unilateral offer. Again, you donít need a deal. You donít need Michel Barnierís permission. If Europe knows whatís best for itself, it would likewise allow Britons to stay where they are.

Third, there should continue to be free movement of people from Europe into Britain ó but with a few conditions. Only for work, not welfare. And with a foreign workerís tax on the employer, to make sure anyone coming in would not be displacing British workers.

Fourth, no Ďdivorce billí whatsoever should be paid to Brussels. The UK government would assume the EUís property and liabilities in Britain, and the EU would assume Britainís share of these in Europe. If Britain was getting its fair share, these would balance out; and if Britain wasnít getting its fair share, itís the EU that should be paying Britain.

Finally, thereís no need on Britainís part for a hard border with Ireland. Britain wouldnít be imposing tariffs on European goods, so thereís no money to collect. The UK has exactly the same product standards as the Republic, so letís not pretend you need to check for problems we all know donít exist. Some changes may be needed but technology allows for smart borders: there was never any need for a Cold War-style Checkpoint Charlie. Irish citizens, of course, have the right to live and work in the UK in an agreement that long predates EU membership.

Of course, the EU might not like this British leap for independence. It might hit out with tariffs and impose burdens on Britain as it does on the US ó but WTO rules put a cap on any retaliatory action. The worst it can get? Weíre talking levies of an average 4 or 5 per cent. Which would be more than offset by a post-Brexit devaluation of the pound (which would have the added bonus of making British goods more competitive everywhere).

UK officialdom assumes that a deal is vital, which is why so little thought has been put into how Britain might just walk away. Instead, officials have concocted lurid scenarios featuring runs on the pound, gridlock at ports, grounded aircraft, hoarding of medicines and flights of investment. Itís been the pre-referendum Project Fear campaign on steroids. And letís not forget how employment, investment and economic growth ticked up after the referendum.

As a former prime minister of Australia and a lifelong friend of your country, I would say this: Britain has nothing to lose except the shackles that the EU imposes on it. After the courage shown by its citizens in the referendum, it would be a tragedy if political leaders go wobbly now. Britainís future has always been global, rather than just with Europe. Like so many of Britainís admirers, I want to see this great country seize this chance and make the most of it.
Tony Abbott served as Prime Minister of Australia from 2013 to 2015
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Old 21st Dec 2018, 20:15
  #1784 (permalink)  
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
 
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The distressing thing about the polarised 'debate' here is that neither side has any influence and neither actually knows what will happen should we leave or remain. There is speculation and informed opinion to a greater or lesser extent but the outcome is unknown, Should Brexit not happen will everything return to the status quo? I would opine not as many players have taken positions from which they would not want to retract; many businesses will have altered their supply chains and bases and not wish to spend more money reverting.
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Old 21st Dec 2018, 20:50
  #1785 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Pontius Navigator View Post
Should Brexit not happen will everything return to the status quo?
The formal relationship between the UK and the rest of the EU will, yes, because the CJEU has said so (at the prompting of me and the thousands of others who contributed to the crowdfunding of the case). But
Originally Posted by Pontius Navigator View Post
I would opine not as many players have taken positions from which they would not want to retract; many businesses will have altered their supply chains and bases and not wish to spend more money reverting.
you're right that those parts of our economy that the brexiters have already destroyed can't be expected to recover when #brexit is stopped.
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Old 21st Dec 2018, 21:20
  #1786 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Gertrude the Wombat View Post
The formal relationship between the UK and the rest of the EU will, yes, because the CJEU has said so (at the prompting of me and the thousands of others who contributed to the crowdfunding of the case). But

you're right that those parts of our economy that the brexiters have already destroyed can't be expected to recover when #brexit is stopped.
Couple of questions, if I may, Gertrude:
  1. What exactly is it about EU membership, that is so great, that gets you and many others so worked up about it?
  2. What parts of our economy have been "destroyed" by Brexit(eers)?
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Old 21st Dec 2018, 22:20
  #1787 (permalink)  
 
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28 European countries are members of the EU. Without the UK, there will be 27. Most of the EU countries are economic basket cases. One-quarter of the EU countries are social disasters.

There are 195 countries in the world today.

Only 4 of the G8 countries are presently in the EU.

Tempest in your teacup?.
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Old 21st Dec 2018, 23:13
  #1788 (permalink)  
 
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I was reading elsewhere today that a possible fall out from a chaotic exit from the EU may be bad news for Iberia. Apparently, the EU regard IAG as a British company and therefore Iberia (and presumably Aer Lingus and Vueling) will be regarded as British companies. This could, theoretically, result in Iberia not being able to fly Spanish domestic routes. Oh dear, if this was to come to pass
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Old 21st Dec 2018, 23:20
  #1789 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by andrewn View Post
Couple of questions, if I may, Gertrude:
  1. What exactly is it about EU membership, that is so great, that gets you and many others so worked up about it?
  2. What parts of our economy have been "destroyed" by Brexit(eers)?
This cannot after two years of intense debate be a serious question. If it osn't crass ignorance, then that only leaves goading.
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Old 21st Dec 2018, 23:40
  #1790 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Sprogget View Post
This cannot after two years of intense debate be a serious question. If it osn't crass ignorance, then that only leaves goading.
I dont think that is very fair. You cannot deny that the Remain campaign decided not to fight on the merits of EU membership but ploughed ahead with the negativity of Project Fear. If EU membership is o great then why haven't we seen more remainers promoting the positive aspects rather than being negative all the time with their tales of woe.
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Old 22nd Dec 2018, 06:50
  #1791 (permalink)  
 
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I make no claims on behalf of the Conservative government of 2016 & the past is the past. A [email protected] like focus on the past is a characteristic of leave supporters & you're welcome to it. It's abundantly clear that we are embarked on a path that will prove hugely damaging to the UK & the only sane way to resolve it is to put it back to the people to see if they still want it.
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Old 22nd Dec 2018, 07:40
  #1792 (permalink)  
 
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Whilst you were sleeping.

The chaotic May goverment continues to insult some of the most valued people in the working population. EU citizens who help staff the NHS

When the planned EU Settlement Scheme is introduced, EU nationals with more than 5 years residency in the UK will be invited to apply for 'settled status' - EU nationals with less than 5 years residency will need to apply for 'pre-settled status'. There will be a nominal fee of course.
£65 for each adult and half that amount for each child.

If this goverment had any backbone it would waiver that fee for EU citizens who are critical to a functioning health service, but no, it is EU nationals working in the NHS who are expected to register first for this scheme, under a 3 week trial period which started yesterday.

Question.

Why did Theresa May wait until Friday 21 December 2018 before targetting EU nationals working in the NHS?

This at the end of a disastrous week with publication of an immigration paper that will divide families ... and in typical May fashion, it was all rolled out at begining of a two week shut down for the holidays ... this reflects what the conservative party stand for at the moment.
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Old 22nd Dec 2018, 08:06
  #1793 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by sfm818 View Post
Why did Theresa May wait until Friday 21 December 2018 before targetting EU nationals working in the NHS?

This at the end of a disastrous week with publication of an immigration paper that will divide families ... and in typical May fashion, it was all rolled out at begining of a two week shut down for the holidays ... this reflects what the conservative party stand for at the moment.
Because as you say it her M.O. and has been for years, releases minimal info and/or announce changes and makes decisions in a manner and with timing that leaves little opportunity for legitimate debate/challenge of the same, even from those within her own party (or her own department when she was at the Home Office)...and of course if all else fails and it looks like she is about to lose a vote she stops the argument in it’s tracks using “democratic” parliamentary process.

With her in charge March 29th, pre the 2300 U.K. watershed could be squeaky bum time for everybody, regardless of which side of the argument you are on.....

Given half a chance I reckon she’d make a pretty convincing dictator.......
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Old 22nd Dec 2018, 08:16
  #1794 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by BAengineer View Post
I dont think that is very fair. You cannot deny that the Remain campaign decided not to fight on the merits of EU membership but ploughed ahead with the negativity of Project Fear. If EU membership is o great then why haven't we seen more remainers promoting the positive aspects rather than being negative all the time with their tales of woe.
Well, it went a bit like this (many times over):

"What's a positive benefit of membership?"

"Freedom of movement."

"But that's negative, it lets nasty foreigners come here."

"But it also lets Brits retire to Spain."

"No, that won't be affected 'cos we're Brits and magically special."

"I'm afraid you're wrong, if freedom of movement is ended that works both ways."

"Project Fear! Project Fear!"

As recently as yesterday I read of a leave voter who has only just (!) realised that his plans to retire to Spain in a couple of years' time might be affected, and he now wants to change his mind.

Here's some more: https://www.etsy.com/listing/4993815...main-eu-poster
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Old 22nd Dec 2018, 09:01
  #1795 (permalink)  
 
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To charge EU citizens a fee to continue working in the NHS is shameful.
It's more than shameful - it's bloody disgraceful.
In fact if it was allowed here I'd say what I really think about it. Sorry Theresa, this is the end for me and the Conservative party. I'm done with you.
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Old 22nd Dec 2018, 09:05
  #1796 (permalink)  
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What's the problem with British people retiring to Spain. They've been doing that for many more years than the EU has been around. There's no problem with freedom of movement.
The UK/Spain tax treaty will not be affected by Brexit.
UK pension tax filing will become a little more complex but will still falal within the protection of the treaty.
You will need a resident permit and that will require a police check.
As a Spanish resident you will be allowed access to healthcare.
You might need to take a driver's test for a Spanish licence.
You might not be able to milk the systems quite as much as might be possible now.
There will be more paperwork.
You might have to learn some Spanish.
You will still be able to retire from retirement and return to the UK if you ever really need an English speaking NHS.
The vast majority of people I have met who have second houses in European countries or who live or work there voted to remain, from self interest not because of any feeling or breadth of consciousness about their country of citizenship. There's nothing wrong with voting for self interest. It's just that the martyrdom pose gets a little tedious form time to time.
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Old 22nd Dec 2018, 09:09
  #1797 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by cavortingcheetah View Post
You will still be able to retire from retirement and return to the UK if you ever really need an English speaking NHS.
There have been reports that in fact this is not the case - people trying that who have been abroad for long enough get treated as health tourists and/or immigrants and denied NHS treatment until they've been back for a year (or whatever it is), much to their (ill-informed) surprise.
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Old 22nd Dec 2018, 09:17
  #1798 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Sallyann1234 View Post
To charge EU citizens a fee to continue working in the NHS is shameful.
It's more than shameful - it's bloody disgraceful.
In fact if it was allowed here I'd say what I really think about it. Sorry Theresa, this is the end for me and the Conservative party. I'm done with you.
Corbyn says that if Labour won a snap election Brexit would go ahead. The two main party leaders seem to be doing a pretty good job of alienating lifelong supporters. I'm done with Labour.
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Old 22nd Dec 2018, 09:24
  #1799 (permalink)  
 
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Me too. The Labour leader plainly so excited by the possibility of a Marxist revolution springing from the Brexit chaos that he gives not one damn about the sheer contradictions of what Brexit will do to millions of people Labour purport to stand for. There really is only him, Milne & McDonnel that run things & they've abandoned their heritage for narrow political gain. Said it before, Corbyn is the handmaiden who will deliver Brexit for the Tories.
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Old 22nd Dec 2018, 09:34
  #1800 (permalink)  
 
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You will still be able to retire from retirement and return to the UK if you ever really need an English speaking NHS.
Not necessarily and certainly not quickly.. ...as Gertrude as pointed out.

Entitlement to NHS treatment (even A&E) is based on established residency rather than factors such as nationality, contribution history, etc....

Last edited by wiggy; 22nd Dec 2018 at 09:46.
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