Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > PPRuNe Social > Jet Blast
Reload this Page >

UK Politics Hamsterwheel MkII

Jet Blast Topics that don't fit the other forums. Rules of Engagement apply.

UK Politics Hamsterwheel MkII

Old 15th Dec 2018, 09:35
  #1441 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: se england
Posts: 1,135
Oh its all germanys fault now is ti. lets have another war that would be a relaly great idea.

I couldnt agree more that politicans are out of touch but you dont commit suicide over that point.

We are a small insignificant island in a global world
We are not going to have an empire again
We are not going to rule the waves again
We are going to replace a lot of white christian well qualified European workers with non white non European poorly qualified people from all kinds of places raising racial tensions even more
trade deals are between trading blocs or large countries-we are leaving the biggest and best trading bloc for a position of weakness with every significant country in the world and damaging our trade with our neighbours (and friends-its the people not the Brussels mob that we are really linked with )
We are portraying ourselves as xenophobic, ignorant and untrustworthy (if we do a no deal with the EU why would anyone else trust us)
And a second referendum is the only way out given the gauge division in the country but one that has only moved in one direction since 2016
brexit will also fuel a generational war between the 'never had it so good' older generation and the younger people in this country whose already less than great prospects
huge damage.
And if you think I am bit annoyed over this it might because both my children have become permanent residents of other Eu countries in the last year to try and preserve their futures from situations like a recent job advert for a global Australian company that requires an Eu passport and in big letters NOT a UK one as part of their qualification process.
pax britanica is offline  
Old 15th Dec 2018, 09:43
  #1442 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Clarty Waters, UK
Age: 54
Posts: 906
Originally Posted by pax britanica View Post
Oh its all germanys fault now is ti. lets have another war that would be a relaly great idea.
It's pretty much impossible to take you seriously after comments like that. So I can't really be bothered to respond to your post in it's entirety. I will only say that regarding.....

Originally Posted by pax britanica View Post
.......We are a small insignificant island in a global world......
.....as one of the worlds largest economies, we are hardly insignificant. And yes, we're in a global world. That's why some of us want to look beyond the EU.
​​​​​​​
Andy_S is offline  
Old 15th Dec 2018, 09:55
  #1443 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: Farnham, Surrey
Posts: 1,190
Originally Posted by G0ULI View Post
It is a sad fact that no one under the age of 60 can remember life outside of the EEC/EU.
It is a sadder fact that so many of those over the age of 60 simply cannot grasp the fact that we are no longer living in the 1950s, and so the world is a very different place. As a result their patronising platitudes simply show that they need to wake up and live in the world as it is, rather than their faded and hopelessly rose-tinted memory of a past era.

PDR
PDR1 is offline  
Old 15th Dec 2018, 09:57
  #1444 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: Farnham, Surrey
Posts: 1,190
Forgot to say - I'm 57, and anyone who patronises me like that is likely to be hit over the head with my Zimmer frame..



PDR
PDR1 is offline  
Old 15th Dec 2018, 10:16
  #1445 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Southwold
Age: 67
Posts: 58
After conversations with my brother and his wife, born 1942 and 1945 I have reluctantly come to the conclusion that it is largely people from that age group that are the problem. I decided not to vote in Ref1. There wasn't enough information to come to a decision. Had there been tangible benefits from leave I would have been prepared to vote that way. However I did have serious doubts about just how easy the extrication process would be. This circumspection was criticised by many as me just being unable to understand the arguments.

Brother and mrs leapt in with both feet, both lifelong Tories they fit in very neatly with the Brexit brigade. I have always been a Labour voter but I must admit at the moment a Tory party led by someone like Dominic Grieve, who has calmly and intelligently analysed our current situation, would attract my vote. In the sane way I am sure. Starmer would get the vote of the more cerebral Tories.

We have pretty much arrived at the point where Ref2 is the only option left to us. There isn't anything else.
Effluent Man is offline  
Old 15th Dec 2018, 10:20
  #1446 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Cambridge, England, EU
Posts: 3,428
Originally Posted by PDR1 View Post
It is a sadder fact that so many of those over the age of 60 simply cannot grasp the fact that we are no longer living in the 1950s, and so the world is a very different place. As a result their patronising platitudes simply show that they need to wake up and live in the world as it is, rather than their faded and hopelessly rose-tinted memory of a past era.
My mother doesn't have a "hopelessly rose-tinted memory" of her house being demolished by bombs, indeed she still jumps at loud noises. She doesn't want other children to have to live through what she lived through (or die of it). She voted remain.
Gertrude the Wombat is online now  
Old 15th Dec 2018, 10:38
  #1447 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: West Wiltshire, UK
Age: 66
Posts: 369
Originally Posted by Gertrude the Wombat View Post
My mother doesn't have a "hopelessly rose-tinted memory" of her house being demolished by bombs, indeed she still jumps at loud noises. She doesn't want other children to have to live through what she lived through (or die of it). She voted remain.
How on earth is voting remain related to not being bombed?

The EU seems to have done very little, if anything, to prevent war, even within Europe. NATO has been the primary peace-keeping influence in Europe since WWII, and arguably the USA has had the greatest influence in limiting possible conflict.
VP959 is online now  
Old 15th Dec 2018, 10:54
  #1448 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Chez Sprog
Posts: 493
Not sure how the EU has any bearing on getting in between two European countries lobbing bombs at each other. On the other hand, the blindingly obvious point all leavers disingenuously overlook is the binding up of economic & political fabric of nation states discourages belligerence. Those who would scoff at that have very short memories of Europe indeed. And that it's necessary to point this out is a decent measure of the wilful dishonesty of many in the debate.
Sprogget is offline  
Old 15th Dec 2018, 10:56
  #1449 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: England
Posts: 29
It is clear that there are around 35 million different reasons for voting leave or remain.

Reading them all on here could take some time.

However, even this was a first for me. One of my fiends voted leave on the basis she didn't like the colour of the suits that the EU representatives wore and they all looked far too smug. If ever there was a case for proving you are fit to vote, this is a candidate..
Grayfly is offline  
Old 15th Dec 2018, 11:05
  #1450 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Clarty Waters, UK
Age: 54
Posts: 906
Originally Posted by Sprogget View Post
Not sure how the EU has any bearing on getting in between two European countries lobbing bombs at each other. On the other hand, the blindingly obvious point all leavers disingenuously overlook is the binding up of economic & political fabric of nation states discourages belligerence. Those who would scoff at that have very short memories of Europe indeed.
It's very true that the economic success of Europe, as a continent, has given it's people a very clear incentive to not throw that away by going to war. I, as a leaver, don't scoff at that for one moment (although I would add that some Remainers seem to believe that the EU, and the EU alone are responsible for the current era of peace and prosperity).

It's interesting, though, that you refer to the binding up of economic and political fabric of nation states. I would argue that the EU's attempt to push ahead with the latter is - if anything - exacerbating rather than healing divisions and has had a huge bearing on where we are today. If only they could have just stuck to being a trading bloc.
Andy_S is offline  
Old 15th Dec 2018, 11:11
  #1451 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Currently within the EU
Posts: 317
Originally Posted by VP959 View Post
How on earth is voting remain related to not being bombed?

The EU seems to have done very little, if anything, to prevent war, even within Europe. NATO has been the primary peace-keeping influence in Europe since WWII, and arguably the USA has had the greatest influence in limiting possible conflict.
Two world wars started within Europe, primarily centered around Germany. It is the free travel and free trade between the EU countries that has made further such wars unthinkable.
Nato was designed to defend against the USSR and has succeeded in that It has not deployed to stop Germany marching again.
Sallyann1234 is online now  
Old 15th Dec 2018, 11:37
  #1452 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: West Wiltshire, UK
Age: 66
Posts: 369
Originally Posted by Sallyann1234 View Post
Two world wars started within Europe, primarily centered around Germany. It is the free travel and free trade between the EU countries that has made further such wars unthinkable.
Nato was designed to defend against the USSR and has succeeded in that It has not deployed to stop Germany marching again.
I would argue that the way Germany was divided following WWII, together with the policy of West German armed forces being forbidden from being mobilised in any role other than defence, was what stopped Germany from being a military threat, and something that had nothing to do with the EU or its predecessor organisations in any way, shape or form.
VP959 is online now  
Old 15th Dec 2018, 11:40
  #1453 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: Here
Posts: 295
Originally Posted by Sallyann1234 View Post
Two world wars started within Europe, primarily centered around Germany. It is the free travel and free trade between the EU countries that has made further such wars unthinkable.
Nato was designed to defend against the USSR and has succeeded in that It has not deployed to stop Germany marching again.
Germany doesn't need to start another war. It has already won in economic terms and those are the only terms ones that matter in the modern world. The political will of the EU = Germany's political will. (Don't tell Macron because he still believes the EU is some sort of Grand alliance between France and Germany).

I ask a genuine question. If we accept that Nato is and has been solely responsible for protecting mainland Europe against external aggression, if we further accept that the EU has created a climate within mainland Europe such that there will never be an internal conflict within its borders, why does the EU want an army or common defence force of it's own? What would be the purpose of such a force? (And I readily accept that if the UK does remain a part of the EU it can decide not to become a member of such a force - that's not the question)
yellowtriumph is offline  
Old 15th Dec 2018, 11:45
  #1454 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Chez Sprog
Posts: 493
Originally Posted by Andy_S View Post
It's very true that the economic success of Europe, as a continent, has given it's people a very clear incentive to not throw that away by going to war. I, as a leaver, don't scoff at that for one moment (although I would add that some Remainers seem to believe that the EU, and the EU alone are responsible for the current era of peace and prosperity).

It's interesting, though, that you refer to the binding up of economic and political fabric of nation states. I would argue that the EU's attempt to push ahead with the latter is - if anything - exacerbating rather than healing divisions and has had a huge bearing on where we are today. If only they could have just stuck to being a trading bloc.
The political union is on line one of the Treaty of Rome. One can argue that back & forth but it's hardly something sprung on the people of Europe. But anyway, for all its myriad faults, the customs union & single market is a crowning glory of the EU, a shining success story. Pity we're binning it.
Sprogget is offline  
Old 15th Dec 2018, 11:52
  #1455 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: Here
Posts: 295
Originally Posted by Sprogget View Post
The political union is on line one of the Treaty of Rome. One can argue that back & forth but it's hardly something sprung on the people of Europe. But anyway, for all its myriad faults, the customs union & single market is a crowning glory of the EU, a shining success story. Pity we're binning it.
You raise an important point. Personally I don't necessarily disagree with political union - eventually. My objection is that the EU is trying to run towards that destination rather than walking, being perceived as trying to bulldoze people rather than getting them to journey along that road at a sedate pace which would be acceptable to all EU nationals of any age, and no doubt age is an issue here.
yellowtriumph is offline  
Old 15th Dec 2018, 12:01
  #1456 (permalink)  
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Peripatetic
Posts: 10,013
And yet another.........

Newcastle terror suspect 'bought knife and chemicals in preparation for attack'

An Iranian man has appeared at at Westminster Magistrates' Court accused of buying a knife and chemicals in preparation for a terror attack in the UK. Fatah Mohammed Abdullah, 33, from Arthur's Hill in Newcastle, is alleged to have bought a knife, a balaclava and "explosive pre-cursors" including chemicals, more than 8,000 matches and a number of fuses.

The defendant was arrested in Newcastle on Tuesday in what police said was intelligence-led operation and part of an ongoing investigation by counter-terror detectives. The court heard he came to the UK from Iran in 2005 and was granted leave to remain in 2010.

District Judge Kwame Inyundo remanded Abdullah in custody to appear at the Old Bailey on January 14.



ORAC is offline  
Old 15th Dec 2018, 12:31
  #1457 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Currently within the EU
Posts: 317
Originally Posted by yellowtriumph View Post
I ask a genuine question. If we accept that Nato is and has been solely responsible for protecting mainland Europe against external aggression, if we further accept that the EU has created a climate within mainland Europe such that there will never be an internal conflict within its borders, why does the EU want an army or common defence force of it's own? What would be the purpose of such a force? (And I readily accept that if the UK does remain a part of the EU it can decide not to become a member of such a force - that's not the question)
Fair question. It can be answered in a single sentence.

A major geographical and trading entity (the EU) should not be totally reliant for its protection on another and competing entity (the US) that could at any time unilaterally choose to remove that protection.
Sallyann1234 is online now  
Old 15th Dec 2018, 12:34
  #1458 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Bedford, UK
Age: 66
Posts: 1,200
That countries forged an alliance in NATO clearly diminished the prospect of a war between them. To discount that and offer the alternative of free trade and movement as the reason seems a bit odd. On reflection, do you really believe that?
Mr Optimistic is online now  
Old 15th Dec 2018, 12:42
  #1459 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Chez Sprog
Posts: 493
Yes, but only if you go through life believing everything is binary.
Sprogget is offline  
Old 15th Dec 2018, 13:00
  #1460 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Currently within the EU
Posts: 317
Originally Posted by Mr Optimistic View Post
That countries forged an alliance in NATO clearly diminished the prospect of a war between them. To discount that and offer the alternative of free trade and movement as the reason seems a bit odd. On reflection, do you really believe that?
NATO was formed in 1949 when the devastated countries of western Europe were struggling to rebuild after WW2 and at the same time needed to defend against the Soviet Union that had occupied much of eastern Europe. That was its purpose. Of course, having US troops based here had a secondary effect of preventing Germany and France resuming their eternal dispute - but they were not in a state to do so, particularly as Germany was split in two. So NATO's part in this was purely incidental.

Now of course Germany is reunited, and France is a nuclear power. But the real reason that Germany and France aren't fighting again over their border is that they no longer have a border! Long may that continue.
Sallyann1234 is online now  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us Archive Advertising Cookie Policy Privacy Statement Terms of Service

Copyright 2018 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.