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UK Politics Hamsterwheel MkII

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UK Politics Hamsterwheel MkII

Old 12th Dec 2018, 09:24
  #1261 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by ORAC View Post
Not true - bing the activist, power seeking, court they are, they retained the decision to themselves.


You seem to be under the impression that the ECJ and the European Council are one and the same - is that just ignorance or is it yet another lie to try to bolster an increasingly ridiculous position?

“…the revocation of the notification of the intention to withdraw must, first, be submitted in writing to the European Council
This isn't a constraint - just defines the process (which is not defined in the treaty, so it needed to be stated).

and, secondly, be unequivocal and unconditional…”
...and that merely says that to be a valid withdrawal it cannot include any caveats or conditionals - again, this is just clarifying the legal niceties to avoid anyone abusing the ruling.

Hope that helps with the whole "comprehending the bleedin' obvious" thing,

PDR
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Old 12th Dec 2018, 09:29
  #1262 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by VP959 View Post
However, anyone who believes that, if we were to revoke Article 50 now, that the EU would not find a way to make the UK pay for the costs associated with Brexit, plus the additional costs that the EU is going to incur as a result of the problems in some of the Southern EU states that are draining EU cash, really needs their bumps felt.
That's an opinion, but it has no basis in fact or provision in law as far as I can see. Can you provide any cites for the legal basis for such an action?

If we choose to remain at this late stage then we will pay a very hefty price for doing so, of that we can be absolutely certain.
I think you need some remedial training in understanding the difference between "absolute certainty" and "uninformed, baseless speculation".

PDR
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Old 12th Dec 2018, 09:29
  #1263 (permalink)  
 
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When Iwas a kid there was a sort of nursery rhyme -Please do remember the fifth of November Gunpowder treason and plot well perhaps its a time of year thing because without the gunpowder there is treason and plot on an unparalleled scale in the Tory party.

Seems odd to someone my age where I grew up reading that the labour party were all Russian spies and communists and it turns out the the real traitors in terms of taking Russian money to undermine the country and commit serious acts of treason are in fact the right wing of the conservative party. John Major rightly called these people bastards-Mrs M as a woman might have a more gender specific epithet and I don blame her.

Of course if she is ousted who would want to take over to face humiliation-the Eu by now couldnt give monkeys whether we stay or go although they would prefer us to stay so any attempt at negotiation will fail and even if the idiotic Britain will be great again lies come true they wont come true for 5 to ten years soa new PM gets all the blame and loses the next election.

And we want to take back control (effectively of nothing since we opt out of most Eu rules we dont like) and give it to people like Boris and Corbyn who would sell their own children to become PM. And of course what do we look like to the wider world who we are suppose to 'strike' all the agreements with. Well we look just like perfidious Albion, cannot be trusted, cannot keep or word and are a bunch of arrogant ex colonial 'masters'. That gives a hopelessly week negotiating position even if people can be bothered to get involved with negotiating a new trade deal they dont need anyway, and that s without our friends across the pond and the America first policy-surely that means Britain a long way second and us poisoning our children with American food products.

Conservatives should remember a few things about some of their more succesful leaders like Churchill, basically the author of the 'hated' human rights act and on a a former admired colleague ;He is a man who puts party before himself and country above party . The Mrs T who was hardly one to back down from a challenge never got anywhere close to the idea of leaving the Eu and when push came to shove was pretty realistic about Britain's place in the world despite the Sunspeak and Torygraph nonsense of the time .
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Old 12th Dec 2018, 09:40
  #1264 (permalink)  
 
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As far as I read on these pages, one Brexit fan after another queues up to push doomsday scenarios designed to persuade us that leaving now, preferably before lunch is the only way to save the empire. These seem to wilt under even the teensiest scrutiny. My own view is the whole thing is a completely undeliverable catastrophe tipping us into a political crisis from which we may not recover for over a generation.

Who can honestly, with hand on heart look back two years to May, Davis & Fox & all the rest of them with their easy smiles and lofty predictions and then survey the carnage of our political discourse this morning & tell me this is all fine? This is absolutely how we thought things would turn out?

Or, will you say remainers wrecked it? The EU undermined us? The PM cocked it all up? Who will you blame?
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Old 12th Dec 2018, 09:49
  #1265 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Sallyann1234 View Post
Except that it will be a condition of the trade deal that we will so desperately seek with the USA.
Import by all means but supply and demand. If there is no demand then the imports will not swamp the market.

About 6 years ago, in the middle of the PYO strawberry season, in Lincolnshire of all places, there were American strawberries for sale; not a huge success.

Prior to joining the EU Cyprus used to enjoy Australian beef. We also imported Argentinean beef until the Falklands War and the red tops kicked up a fuss.

We source lots of our of season greens from Africa and South America, obviously as permitted by the EU. Maybe there are other suppliers in the Global market too.
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Old 12th Dec 2018, 09:58
  #1266 (permalink)  
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
 
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Sprogget,

I stopped reading after the activist, power seeking part.
You should get out more - the European Court has been recognised as activist since the Cassis de Dijon case back in the 1960s. There is a substantial body of scholastic work on the subject. Probably the only more activist Supreme Court is that of Israel. I wrote a couple of my politics degree essays on the subject.

http://hum.port.ac.uk/europeanstudie...tivism-debate/

PDR1,

That’s what they said about the original wording about the backstop two years ago - its just a harmless couple of sentences to placate the Irish, the document is not legally binding.
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Old 12th Dec 2018, 10:03
  #1267 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Pontius Navigator View Post
Import by all means but supply and demand. If there is no demand then the imports will not swamp the market.

About 6 years ago, in the middle of the PYO strawberry season, in Lincolnshire of all places, there were American strawberries for sale; not a huge success.

Prior to joining the EU Cyprus used to enjoy Australian beef. We also imported Argentinean beef until the Falklands War and the red tops kicked up a fuss.

We source lots of our of season greens from Africa and South America, obviously as permitted by the EU. Maybe there are other suppliers in the Global market too.
Permitted by the EU?? The EU does not, and never has dictated who we can and can't trade with. You know who dictates that? The United States of America, the tentacles of who's legal system reach globally.

As for veggies, we certainly source out of season vegetables globally, beans from various African countries, tomatoes from Morocco, strawberries from Egypt, asparagus from Peru and Mexico and if we are to believe Brexiteers they'll all be much cheaper post Brexit - but I won't hold my breath waiting! The issues are more likely to be with EU originating products, again tomatoes from Spain and the Netherlands, strawberries from Belgium and the Netherlands, we will as those things that are called strawberries but taste like nothing of the sort, from Spain. Broccoli and potatoes from Spain, potatoes from Cyprus. If road freight is delayed in the event of a no deal Brexit the supply chain, as it exists at present will be badly disrupted.

Still, I suppose we can fall back on the UK staples of sprouts and turnips in the winter months. Delicious!
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Old 12th Dec 2018, 10:07
  #1268 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Pontius Navigator View Post
Import by all means but supply and demand. If there is no demand then the imports will not swamp the market.
​​​​​​
​​​​​​The US imports will be cheap because of their farming practices. Once the meat gets into the food chain here it will be indistinguishable..
You will always be able to pay more in a supermarket or a better class restaurant for food produced to a higher standard - our old standsrd.
But schools, hospitals and many restaurants have to buy the cheapest food they can source. So will any ordinary individual on a limited budget. And of course farmers here will have to use the same chemicals to compete on price, or go out of business.
That's the demand.
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Old 12th Dec 2018, 10:20
  #1269 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by pax britanica View Post
When Iwas a kid there was a sort of nursery rhyme -Please do remember the fifth of November Gunpowder treason and plot well perhaps its a time of year thing because without the gunpowder there is treason and plot on an unparalleled scale in the Tory party.

Seems odd to someone my age where I grew up reading that the labour party were all Russian spies and communists and it turns out the the real traitors in terms of taking Russian money to undermine the country and commit serious acts of treason are in fact the right wing of the conservative party. John Major rightly called these people bastards-Mrs M as a woman might have a more gender specific epithet and I don blame her.

Of course if she is ousted who would want to take over to face humiliation-the Eu by now couldnt give monkeys whether we stay or go although they would prefer us to stay so any attempt at negotiation will fail and even if the idiotic Britain will be great again lies come true they wont come true for 5 to ten years soa new PM gets all the blame and loses the next election.

And we want to take back control (effectively of nothing since we opt out of most Eu rules we dont like) and give it to people like Boris and Corbyn who would sell their own children to become PM. And of course what do we look like to the wider world who we are suppose to 'strike' all the agreements with. Well we look just like perfidious Albion, cannot be trusted, cannot keep or word and are a bunch of arrogant ex colonial 'masters'. That gives a hopelessly week negotiating position even if people can be bothered to get involved with negotiating a new trade deal they dont need anyway, and that s without our friends across the pond and the America first policy-surely that means Britain a long way second and us poisoning our children with American food products.

Conservatives should remember a few things about some of their more succesful leaders like Churchill, basically the author of the 'hated' human rights act and on a a former admired colleague ;He is a man who puts party before himself and country above party . The Mrs T who was hardly one to back down from a challenge never got anywhere close to the idea of leaving the Eu and when push came to shove was pretty realistic about Britain's place in the world despite the Sunspeak and Torygraph nonsense of the time .

Point of order Mr Chairman, Mrs T was not in power when the EU was formed.
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Old 12th Dec 2018, 10:20
  #1270 (permalink)  
 
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PDR
I think you need some remedial training in understanding the difference between "absolute certainty" and "uninformed, baseless speculation
This thread, rather like most of public and media comment, is riddled with speculation and uninformed comment, mostly, and understandably, emotive. No problem with that, but for me it has become hugely tedious; especially when it is worn with a righteous hat. So, if the hat fits ------
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Old 12th Dec 2018, 10:54
  #1271 (permalink)  
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Do yourself a favour and read the book, ‘ The Strange Death of Europe’. It predicts everything that is happening now. Europe is coming undone. Everywhere you look.. it’s broken.
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Old 12th Dec 2018, 11:04
  #1272 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by SOPS View Post
Do yourself a favour and read the book, ‘ The Strange Death of Europe’. It predicts everything that is happening now. Europe is coming undone. Everywhere you look.. it’s broken.
It seems to me that the opposite is happening.
Brexit has been a warning to the EU as to what can happen if individual governments respond to complaints of 'loss of control'.
I can see the EU actually backing away from federalism and becoming more united but more flexible. The fate of the UK as it drifts across towards the USA and faces renewed demand for internal breakup will be a warning to other governments who face similar unwise demands for 'independence'.
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Old 12th Dec 2018, 11:23
  #1273 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Sprogget View Post
As far as I read on these pages, one Brexit fan after another queues up to push doomsday scenarios designed to persuade us that leaving now, preferably before lunch is the only way to save the empire. These seem to wilt under even the teensiest scrutiny. My own view is the whole thing is a completely undeliverable catastrophe tipping us into a political crisis from which we may not recover for over a generation.

Who can honestly, with hand on heart look back two years to May, Davis & Fox & all the rest of them with their easy smiles and lofty predictions and then survey the carnage of our political discourse this morning & tell me this is all fine? This is absolutely how we thought things would turn out?

Or, will you say remainers wrecked it? The EU undermined us? The PM cocked it all up? Who will you blame?
David Cameron is primarily to blame.
His problem was that he was a populist who simply could not stop himself latching onto whatever was making the headlines.

He was also a tactical thinker who only focused on the here and now.
He gave in to UKIP popularity and his own Brexiteers and thought that by calling a referendum all his problems would go away.

He convinced himself that he would win and hence planned no contingency.
​​​​​​
Once he lost he walked away leaving someone else to pick up the pieces.
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Old 12th Dec 2018, 12:00
  #1274 (permalink)  
 
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I know Mrs T was gone before Europe adopted the EU but she was still involved in many negotiations with its predecessor functions and I dont recall her making a lot of noise when it was formed, she was many things some good and some bad but she was never an idiot.

But what message do these events give to the rest of the world. basically one-youcannot trust the British becaue we dont keep our word, we comit to things and then try a nd weael out of them so whats that going to look like on trade. And be ware be very aware of Sallys message earleir of exactly what the USA are going to do to us -a country with appalling food hygiene standards and the foundation of almost evry fast food fuelled obesity in the world -just perfect . And as the Green party leader said today why is it that no one can give any coherent reason about a second referendum when huge numbers of people have something of an understanding of whats involved as opposed to the dont worry just vote leave and we wil rule the waves again and there will only be white people in the country. A shameful shamefgul betrayal of their positiona nd infunce by a relatively small group of ultra right Tory MPs who want to see the 19th century return (for them, f==k the publicinterest )
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Old 12th Dec 2018, 12:03
  #1275 (permalink)  
 
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And now those pieces (the Conservative party) is ripping itself and with it the country apart. Britain be damned so it can have an ideological squabble with itself.

The arrogance of the party in “power” is embarrassing disgusting and should be a warning to all.

Everyone talks of a a fear of a Corbyn government whilst the current government is ripping the country to pieces.
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Old 12th Dec 2018, 12:07
  #1276 (permalink)  
 
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I don't know why Corbyn is such a hate figure for the right, he's the handmaiden that will deliver Brexit for May if she clings on.
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Old 12th Dec 2018, 12:08
  #1277 (permalink)  
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Sally,true which was why the Forces had Argentinean beef.

AT Notts, I haven't seen Egyptian potatoes in decades. Why did Cyprus stop Australian beef? If the EU doesn't dictate with whom we trade, why no US beef now?
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Old 12th Dec 2018, 12:29
  #1278 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by pax britanica View Post
I know Mrs T was gone before Europe adopted the EU but she was still involved in many negotiations with its predecessor functions and I dont recall her making a lot of noise when it was formed, she was many things some good and some bad but she was never an idiot.

But what message do these events give to the rest of the world. basically one-youcannot trust the British becaue we dont keep our word, we comit to things and then try a nd weael out of them so whats that going to look like on trade. And be ware be very aware of Sallys message earleir of exactly what the USA are going to do to us -a country with appalling food hygiene standards and the foundation of almost evry fast food fuelled obesity in the world -just perfect . And as the Green party leader said today why is it that no one can give any coherent reason about a second referendum when huge numbers of people have something of an understanding of whats involved as opposed to the dont worry just vote leave and we wil rule the waves again and there will only be white people in the country. A shameful shamefgul betrayal of their positiona nd infunce by a relatively small group of ultra right Tory MPs who want to see the 19th century return (for them, f==k the publicinterest )
The world is well aware of British sleigh of hand, the phrase Perfidious Albion has been around allegedly since the 13th century.

Interestingly, Tony Connelly, RTÉ's correspondent in Brussels reported recently conversations he'd been having with diplomats in the EU from mainland countries, inquiring from the Irish perspective if the UK could be trusted. He noted that the phrase had entered the lexicon within the diplomatic circles in the EU.

David Davis, while Brexit Sec. bluntly saying in an interview that he only agreed to all the tc's&c's in the withdrawal agreement "backstop" that support the UK's commitments under the (very high profile, international agreement between two sovereign states, supported and backed by both the US and EU, and lodged with the UN) Belfast Agreement, merely as a negotiating tool to move the discussion on to the next phase and that it had no legal force and the UK couldn't be held to any of it, was a prime, recent example. Other's such as former Foreign Secretary Boris Johnson suggesting that that the Agreement is "folly", IMHO further undermines credibility.

That's before we get to the straight up lies being bandied about currently.

But, from the sidelines, it's fascinating to watch.

JAS
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Old 12th Dec 2018, 12:43
  #1279 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Sallyann1234 View Post
It seems to me that the opposite is happening.
Brexit has been a warning to the EU as to what can happen if individual governments respond to complaints of 'loss of control'.
You’re quite correct. Support for remaining in the EU has risen in every other member country since the Brexit referendum. In Ireland support for remaining in the EU is now at 92% (yes you read that correctly). If anything kicking out their least cooperative member will probably bring the others closer together.
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Old 12th Dec 2018, 12:45
  #1280 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Pontius Navigator View Post
Sally,true which was why the Forces had Argentinean beef.
How much rectopamine does Argentinian beef have?
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