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UK Politics Hamsterwheel MkII

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UK Politics Hamsterwheel MkII

Old 10th Dec 2018, 17:15
  #1161 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
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BTW , on the subject of democracy, control, wishes of the people, Parliament vs. Government:

Multiple day debate scheduled and was ongoing.....vote on the matter being debated scheduled for tomorrow night ....half way through said debate PM realises ( "soundings" etc) that she isn't going to win the vote, in fact she is going to lose..big time....PM decides to delay the vote, (as it stands) TFN.....

Party politics aside is anybody else here just slightly uneasy about this...just a little bit? Yes? No?
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Old 10th Dec 2018, 17:29
  #1162 (permalink)  
 
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Can't get over the fact that TM didn't share with her own Cabinet, let alone the Conservative Party, Parliament or anyone, then goes above the lot to try to appeal direct to the people. She says rejecting the deal means uncharted territory without thinking that she has had two years to chart it and didn't bother. Weird.
However, can someone explain this NI border issue to me. If there is a soft border in Ireland, and NI is set apart from the rest of the UK, doesn't this mean a hard border between NI and GB. If that is acceptable to the EU, why does moving the border into NI matter??
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Old 10th Dec 2018, 17:32
  #1163 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by CroqueMonsieur View Post


Well any other time she would ne a shambles but like a knight in shining armour Corbyn and his cronies by virtue of being modern day labour simply make May look strong and stable.
Stupid response which has no tangible basis apart from dogma. Don't know why but I expected a more cogent reply.

When everything is crumbling around us, I know, let's blame Labour.....
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Old 10th Dec 2018, 17:32
  #1164 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Mr Optimistic View Post
However, can someone explain this NI border issue to me. If there is a soft border in Ireland, and NI is set apart from the rest of the UK, doesn't this mean a hard border between NI and GB. If that is acceptable to the EU, why does moving the border into NI matter??
'Cos the one wouldn't break the terms of the GFA but the other would? - the EU is simply finding "unacceptable" things that can't happen.
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Old 10th Dec 2018, 17:33
  #1165 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by wiggy View Post
BTW , on the subject of democracy, control, wishes of the people, Parliament vs. Government:

Multiple day debate scheduled and was ongoing.....vote on the matter being debated scheduled for tomorrow night ....half way through said debate PM realises ( "soundings" etc) that she isn't going to win the vote, in fact she is going to lose..big time....PM decides to delay the vote, (as it stands) TFN.....

Party politics aside is anybody else here just slightly uneasy about this...just a little bit? Yes? No?
No, not at all. She made the point that she now understood the vote was going to be lost because of the Irish Backstop 'situation'. She's said she's going back to Brussels to seek further assurances over the backstop. Given that she said she had spoken to the EU Council President and the Eire PM over the weekend perhaps she thinks or believes useful clarification to the backstop can be made? In which case I would say a delay in the vote is to be applauded until further clarification or assurances (or not) can be discussed as I believe it may finally swing the vote one way or the other.
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Old 10th Dec 2018, 18:09
  #1166 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by yellowtriumph View Post
Given that she said she had spoken to the EU Council President and the Eire PM over the weekend perhaps she thinks or believes useful clarification to the backstop can be made?
Tusk said no renegotiation of backstop a few minutes ago. I doubt he said anything different in the phone call.
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Old 10th Dec 2018, 18:29
  #1167 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by yellowtriumph View Post
No, not at all. She made the point that she now understood the vote was going to be lost because of the Irish Backstop 'situation'. She's said she's going back to Brussels to seek further assurances over the backstop. Given that she said she had spoken to the EU Council President and the Eire PM over the weekend perhaps she thinks or believes useful clarification to the backstop can be made? In which case I would say a delay in the vote is to be applauded until further clarification or assurances (or not) can be discussed as I believe it may finally swing the vote one way or the other.
Just remind us - who was it who proposed the Backstop.
It was not the EU or Jeremy Corbyn for that matter.
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Old 10th Dec 2018, 18:33
  #1168 (permalink)  
 
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Apart from the fact that there are no Brexiteers of distinction or renown, they are all either liars or chancers pursuing their own ends. Or like Boris a proven incompetent as well one thing that has come out of all this is the idiocy of 'take back control'
And give it to
1 America First lead by Mr trump whose corporations are steadily buying into UK companies to expand their market for disgusting foodstuffs and untried medical products.
2 The UK parliament who have shown themselves completely unfit for purpose over the last few weeks where in all most every case MPs have put themselves before party and party before country and displayed value of ignorance and naivety abut the issues and their complexity which is beyond belief .

Compared to the Houses of Parliament the Eu looks a perfectly organised stable and responsible body especially when they come out with laws like the recent legislation preventing on line retailers from blocking people from buying goods from other parts of the EU than ones home country.

As for making the whole thing revolve around Northern Ireland is the rest of the country going to be effectivel dictated to by a tiny insignificant outpost of the UK economy-madness.

And as for referring to people like Blair Brown and Adonis as traitors they stand ten feet tall and gleam with snowy whiteness compared to the real self serving traitors (accepting money from Russia to fund a campaign of fake news and untruths is surely treason ) like Johnson, Davis, Fox and worst of all Rees-Mogg
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Old 10th Dec 2018, 19:08
  #1169 (permalink)  
 
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Aside from the current chaotic state of affairs, it will be interesting to see what history eventually makes of the Brexit shambles.

I do hope that it focuses on the lies that were knowing told by political parties and those in positions of power to the British people.

I hope it will recall Liam Fox telling us that negotiating to leave the EU was the easiest thing possible.

But most of all I hope that history will not recall the British people being significantly worse off for many years as a result of leaving the EU but will celebrate a much stronger and wealthier Britain having taken back control of her destiny.....I hope.
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Old 10th Dec 2018, 19:22
  #1170 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Sprogget View Post
Rubish?

That was then. This is now. Now, those unicorns don't seem so attainable do they?
Yes indeed. You were talking rubbish

I suspected, from the post I quoted that, despite your remarkable word count, you are pretty much unaware of the role Parliament has played in this saga. Your “that was then, this is now …., unicorn” rubbish, rather than a simple “I was wrong”confirms, my suspicion.

Despite what many (including you, no doubt) believe, Cameron did not call an in/out referendum in 2016 – he did not have the power. Cameron, delivering on his manifest promise (an act of selfish stupidity supported at the time by many of our now most noisy Remainers) presented a Bill to Parliament. MPs (including many of our now most noisy Remainers) voted to let the people decide in this once in a generation poll.

Theresa May did not trigger Art 50. The Supreme Court ruled that the Government needed the agreement of Parliament before they could trigger Art 50. MPs (including many of our now most noisy Remainers) voted to trigger Art 50 and leave the EU.

Theresa is a remainer but understands the democratic process. She would wish for the softest of Brexits but with a wafer-thin majority she would have been unable to fight off the hard Brexiteers in her party. So she went to the polls to secure an increased majority. She offered a Strong and Stable Government (no other party could get anywhere near a majority as evidenced by the result). The country (including you no doubt) turned her down. Since then, Theresa has had to fight her Brexit battle, not only with the EU and her own party but with the whole of the opposition benches SNP and Labour in particular.

Blame whom you like.

Cameron for buying votes so as to climb higher up the greasy pole. Or better still, Parliament for voting the Referendum Act through.

The great unwashed, uneducated, racist little-englander bigots who voted leave though they had no idea what leaving meant. Or better still Parliament, especially those MPs who knew the outcome – catastrophe - but triggered Art 50 anyway.


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Old 10th Dec 2018, 19:24
  #1171 (permalink)  
 
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we ahve control of our destiny now- even more so if we stayed in Eu where peopel do listen to us despite what the Mail says since with Merkel stepping down and Macron hamstrung on UK is a credible elader.
We do control our own destiny in almost every way-we are not in the Euro or Shengen and those opt outs wont change. Criminal justice is nothing to do with Eu, Human rights act was written by the UK -Winston Churchill in fact and maybe there will be a European army but we wont have to join-but there is no good reason why we shouldnt.

Leaving the EU puts us at the mercy of USA and Chine and India in whose eyes we are an insignificant entity with a penchant for importing more than we can afford.

And giving control of anything to the UK Parliament at the moment when they have demonstrated that in face of national crisis they are completely inept .

So theres your signal from the ECJ Theresa , you voted remain now you can call the whole thing off and leave Johnson Farage Fox and Davis merely swinging in the wind when of course they should be swinging from lampposts after their lies and deceit, grasping Russian money and breaking the election laws..

Aux Armes Citoyans, its pretty clear what out neighbours would be doing in this situation
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Old 10th Dec 2018, 19:59
  #1172 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Gertrude the Wombat View Post
Tusk said no renegotiation of backstop a few minutes ago. I doubt he said anything different in the phone call.
That's why I said 'useful clarification' and not re-negotiation. What that might be I couldn't possibly know.
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Old 10th Dec 2018, 20:00
  #1173 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Buster15 View Post
Just remind us - who was it who proposed the Backstop.
It was not the EU or Jeremy Corbyn for that matter.
It was Theresa May - but you know that.
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Old 10th Dec 2018, 20:00
  #1174 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Dutystude View Post


Yes indeed. You were talking rubbish

I suspected, from the post I quoted that, despite your remarkable word count, you are pretty much unaware of the role Parliament has played in this saga. Your “that was then, this is now …., unicorn” rubbish, rather than a simple “I was wrong”confirms, my suspicion.

Despite what many (including you, no doubt) believe, Cameron did not call an in/out referendum in 2016 – he did not have the power. Cameron, delivering on his manifest promise (an act of selfish stupidity supported at the time by many of our now most noisy Remainers) presented a Bill to Parliament. MPs (including many of our now most noisy Remainers) voted to let the people decide in this once in a generation poll.

Theresa May did not trigger Art 50. The Supreme Court ruled that the Government needed the agreement of Parliament before they could trigger Art 50. MPs (including many of our now most noisy Remainers) voted to trigger Art 50 and leave the EU.

Theresa is a remainer but understands the democratic process. She would wish for the softest of Brexits but with a wafer-thin majority she would have been unable to fight off the hard Brexiteers in her party. So she went to the polls to secure an increased majority. She offered a Strong and Stable Government (no other party could get anywhere near a majority as evidenced by the result). The country (including you no doubt) turned her down. Since then, Theresa has had to fight her Brexit battle, not only with the EU and her own party but with the whole of the opposition benches SNP and Labour in particular.

Blame whom you like.

Cameron for buying votes so as to climb higher up the greasy pole. Or better still, Parliament for voting the Referendum Act through.

The great unwashed, uneducated, racist little-englander bigots who voted leave though they had no idea what leaving meant. Or better still Parliament, especially those MPs who knew the outcome – catastrophe - but triggered Art 50 anyway.


For the avoidance of doubt, you are intent on arguing pointlessly over who did what, when. The relevance is zero today but hey ho. Gina Miller did indeed force the government to have regard to Parliament, who in turn did indeed vote for article 50. It doesn't change the fact that the referendum was advisory & not binding. The government made a choice. Now you can argue the consequences of a hypothetical scenario had they made a different choice until you're blue in the face - I don't care. However, your unfortunate manner in opening every post with the word 'Rubbish' marks you out as someone who doesn't really rely on argument, facts or anything very interesting.

I will note though the Miller episode is but one in a long trail of a government banging on in public about Parliamentary sovereignty yet attempting constantly to bypass it. Square me that circle.
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Old 10th Dec 2018, 20:39
  #1175 (permalink)  
 
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It seemed obvious then, and more so now but too late, that if Brexit was to be attained then a distinct possibility was that we would not get to an acceptable negotiated position. Therefore proceeding with Brexit meant accepting the risk we would exit under WTO rules. This was all shouted about here two years ago. As such TM should have set Plan B preparations in motion whilst saying it would hopefully be avoided. Secondly, the diverse nature of UK politics should at least have been attempted to be mitigated by trying to establish some parliamentary basis for cross-party agreement. Mightn't of worked, but should have been attempted.
It has convinced me that we need proportional representation. I voted Remain but I would vote Leave now if given the chance as otherwise it would mean we are stuck in this forever and I want to prove we have the choice, even if it means a few years of lost growth. Had TM planned realistically we would be much better placed, or be mulling over a better offer.
I can't wait for history to judge her, I'm judging her now
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Old 10th Dec 2018, 21:15
  #1176 (permalink)  
 
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The UK parliament who have shown themselves completely unfit for purpose over the last few weeks where in all most every case MPs have put themselves before party and party before country and displayed value of ignorance and naivety abut the issues and their complexity which is beyond belief .

In one, I totally and utterly agree, and I feel the worst is still to come.
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Old 10th Dec 2018, 21:24
  #1177 (permalink)  
 
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The great unwashed, uneducated, racist little-englander bigots who voted leave though they had no idea what leaving meant. Or better still Parliament, especially those MPs who knew the outcome – catastrophe - but triggered Art 50 anyway.
More garbage sigh, that will be the likes of the Bamfords then, the owners of JCB and part of your great unwashed, uneducated, racist little englander bigots.
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Old 10th Dec 2018, 22:16
  #1178 (permalink)  
 
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Shame they couldn't come up with something like Eire issuing a passport to the populace of NI thus ensuring a dual passport and negating some of the border issues.
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Old 10th Dec 2018, 22:31
  #1179 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by NutLoose View Post
Shame they couldn't come up with something like Eire issuing a passport to the populace of NI thus ensuring a dual passport and negating some of the border issues.
Oh mate, Are you Andrew Bridgen in disguise?

Last edited by Sprogget; 10th Dec 2018 at 22:41.
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Old 10th Dec 2018, 22:48
  #1180 (permalink)  
 
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Dutystude:
The great unwashed, uneducated, racist little-englander bigots who voted leave though they had no idea what leaving meant.
Posting remarks such as this puts you squarely in that category, with the exception of the voting leave portion.
Personally, I do wash, I am educated, I am not racist, nor a 'little englander' (Doesn't the 'englander' merit a capital letter?) and I am not, to the best of my knowledge a bigot. Yet I voted leave.
Now, how about you?
May I suggest a spot of neck winding in may be in order? Unless, of course, you post stuff like that with the express intention of insulting anyone and everyone.
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