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UK Politics Hamsterwheel MkII

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UK Politics Hamsterwheel MkII

Old 19th Nov 2019, 21:22
  #11561 (permalink)  
 
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I thought Corbyn was almost robotic and just reeling off prewritten responses that in my view made him look very uncomfortable saying them out loud, almost as if he did not believe in them himself.

As for Johnson he just came across as being how he is always portrayed, and that being the bumbling fool, he at least seemed to believe in what he was saying.
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Old 19th Nov 2019, 21:23
  #11562 (permalink)  
 
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A huge advantage over the projected share of the Labour vote thinking that Corbyn won. A commentator earlier observed that people tend to think that the winner of a debate is the one whose party they support. In this case with Labour in the mid twenties almost double that number thought Corbyn won.
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Old 19th Nov 2019, 21:24
  #11563 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Exrigger View Post
he at least seemed to believe in what he was saying.
An accomplished liar usually does....
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Old 19th Nov 2019, 21:54
  #11564 (permalink)  
 
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I've just finished watching this "debate" (recorded).

First impression was that as a moderator Julie Etchingham was about as much use as a chocolate teapot, lost control of the discussion at several points and was totally unable to shut up either participant when they continued beyond their allotted time. Johnson in particular repeatedly went on when he had been asked to stop.

Corbyn, in refusing to say which way he would vote in his proposed referendum on his deal versus remain made him look totally stupid, and frankly any remainer voting for Labour believing that Corbyn is anything other than a leaver (probably more of a leaver than Johnson) is sadly deluded. That unwillingly to answer a simple question honestly and straightforwardly can't help his case.

But then, Johnson continually answering questions totally unrelated to Brexit with "get Brexit done" and "dither and delay" made him look foolish.

On balance, I reckon that Corbyn won the debate, but frankly I can't and won't vote for either. It's a travesty of democracy that Swinson, and possibly Farage (though in not fighting even 50% of the seats he probably ruled himself out) were not on the platform to be cross examined.
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Old 19th Nov 2019, 23:21
  #11565 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by ATNotts View Post
I've just finished watching this "debate" (recorded).

First impression was that as a moderator Julie Etchingham was about as much use as a chocolate teapot, lost control of the discussion at several points and was totally unable to shut up either participant when they continued beyond their allotted time. Johnson in particular repeatedly went on when he had been asked to stop.

Why oh why do they not simply have the option to turn off their mics, if they witter on switch them off.

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Old 20th Nov 2019, 06:43
  #11566 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by ATNotts View Post
I've just finished watching this "debate" (recorded).

First impression was that as a moderator Julie Etchingham was about as much use as a chocolate teapot, lost control of the discussion at several points and was totally unable to shut up either participant when they continued beyond their allotted time. Johnson in particular repeatedly went on when he had been asked to stop.

Corbyn, in refusing to say which way he would vote in his proposed referendum on his deal versus remain made him look totally stupid, and frankly any remainer voting for Labour believing that Corbyn is anything other than a leaver (probably more of a leaver than Johnson) is sadly deluded. That unwillingly to answer a simple question honestly and straightforwardly can't help his case.

But then, Johnson continually answering questions totally unrelated to Brexit with "get Brexit done" and "dither and delay" made him look foolish.

On balance, I reckon that Corbyn won the debate, but frankly I can't and won't vote for either. It's a travesty of democracy that Swinson, and possibly Farage (though in not fighting even 50% of the seats he probably ruled himself out) were not on the platform to be cross examined.
That's a pretty good summary really. Boris didn't really do himself any favours though with his constant interjections . Corbyn did come across as far more composed in comparison.

The questions from the public were interesting however, in particular the one about trust and integrity......not an easy one for Boris to answer really.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics...trimmed-corbyn

Thankfully, both Mail and Excess readers were not encumbered with the onerous task of having to think for themselves .....both rags headlines have done this for them. The parallel universe theory becomes more and more plausible every day.....

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs-the-papers-50482722

Last edited by Krystal n chips; 20th Nov 2019 at 07:03.
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Old 20th Nov 2019, 07:55
  #11567 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by NutLoose View Post



Why oh why do they not simply have the option to turn off their mics, if they witter on switch them off.

That is precisely what I thought as I was watching. it surely can't be beyond the wit of broadcasters to do so. I feel that a heavier weight moderator might have been able to control both participants better. I don't tend to watch ITV news so I'm not familiar with their "talent", but I can think of a couple of non-ITV presenters who could have done a better (more authoritative) job.

As for the final "Christmas present" question; in a programme that ran for just one hour, minus commercial breaks, that was a total waste of airtime use.
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Old 20th Nov 2019, 07:56
  #11568 (permalink)  
 
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Fact Check .......or not?

The @CCHQPress account - the Tory press office - was renamed "factcheckUK" for Tuesday's live TV debate involving Boris Johnson and Jeremy Corbyn.

After the debate, the account reverted to its original branding.

Twitter said it would take "decisive corrective action" if a similar stunt was attempted again.
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Old 20th Nov 2019, 07:59
  #11569 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by wiggy View Post
This sort of stunt, and the editing of Keir Starmer interview recently have the hallmarks of Dominic Cummings all over them.

If we had anything like a fair / neutral media he and his cronies simply wouldn't get away with them. As it is, with the Likes of the Mail, Telegraph and News International titles all effectively in the pay of the Conservative party that's never going to happen. (It would only be fair to call out the Mirror as being in the pay of Labour too).
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Old 20th Nov 2019, 08:15
  #11570 (permalink)  
 
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No amount of editing changes the fact that what Starmer said was unconvincing and, frankly, ludicrous: that they’ll somehow agree a “better” deal with EU...against which Labour would then campaign to have rejected??

How can anyone argue Corbyn won the debate when he had no position to defend on the biggest political issue of the generation?
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Old 20th Nov 2019, 08:21
  #11571 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by wiggy View Post
Fact Check .......or not?
Ah. undaunted by their first offering of the adapted interview, it's nice to see a reprise following so rapidly......no mention , this time, of blaming this on the young generation, only the digital team getting a passing mention.

A special mention however for the IT communications guru himself, enter one James ( unfortunate misnomer ) Cleverly.

" How can anyone argue Corbyn won the debate when he had no position to defend on the biggest political issue of the generation? "

How can I put this....gently. The consensus is that neither participant "won " but in boxing terms Corbyn was marginally ahead on points . If the infamous Pools Panel was still around, it would have been a "score draw " .......or as 'arry would say " a good one oner "

Can we take it you won't be voting for the Labour candidate in whatever Manchester constituency you reside in then ?

Last edited by Krystal n chips; 20th Nov 2019 at 08:32.
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Old 20th Nov 2019, 08:32
  #11572 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by ShotOne View Post
No amount of editing changes the fact that what Starmer said was unconvincing and, frankly, ludicrous: that they’ll somehow agree a “better” deal with EU...against which Labour would then campaign to have rejected??

How can anyone argue Corbyn won the debate when he had no position to defend on the biggest political issue of the generation?
But by the same token, Boris Johnson's answer to just about every question was "get Breixt done", "dither and deal" and of course "oven-ready deal".

I'm not defending Corbyn, his apparent inability to answer what is a very simple question "are you a leaver or a remainer" is lamentable. However, as a Brexiteer you should be encouraged as to anyone with much more than half a brain it's blindingly obvious; Corbyn wants out of the EU, probably more passionately than Johnson does. He only fell down on the leave side as a route to power.
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Old 20th Nov 2019, 08:33
  #11573 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Effluent Man View Post
Not a fan of Corbyn but there was no doubt in my mind that he was the winner. More statesmanlike and measured and far less manic. Was Boris on something?
Everyone I have spoken with since gives it to JC on points. BJ indeed continual ran over time and added nothing that he hadn't had all ready.

They ought to use a dead mic system. If you don't finish before the red light . . .
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Old 20th Nov 2019, 08:37
  #11574 (permalink)  
 
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I watched perhaps 20 minutes of that debate, making the same observations as our learned colleagues above. I too wondered why the moderator didn't have a mic switch (or a 12 bore shotgun!). I thought Johnson had 2 main threads; "Get Brexit Done" and make the attacks on Labour personal to Corbyn.
I am not sure about the comment re Corbyn refusing to say which way he would vote etc is accurate. I was sure Johnson's challenge was for Corbyn to say which side he would be promoting, Leave or Remain. Whatever, I couldn't understand why he refused to answer that directly. I ended up with the impression he was actually answering it but in a roundabout way. As I saw it, he was saying Labour will continue down the Brexit route, as that was mandated by the 2016 referendum, but with a different deal. That different deal would then be put to the electorate for a final Yes or No.
I think, at least in the portion I watched, Corbyn came out the winner if judged only on manners. He seems to have been brought up the same I was; keep your mouth shut when the other person is still speaking. When the other person stops, you get your turn.
I left the programme and ended up watching one of those interminable programmes about "Why plane crashes are all the pilot's fault". At the end of that, I turned to BBC1 and there was Farage in a one man Question Time. One has to say, he knows how to put his point of view across, making it all sound so believable and excellent fodder for the gullible.
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Old 20th Nov 2019, 08:45
  #11575 (permalink)  
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Kelvin, I agree with your conclusion of JCs position, just not expressed clearly.

I thought Johnson's oven ready turkey was pure soundbite, said often enough you forget to ask if it is a gold one stuffed with chestnuts, or scraggy old hen left over from last year.

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Old 20th Nov 2019, 08:49
  #11576 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by KelvinD View Post
I and there was Farage in a one man Question Time. One has to say, he knows how to put his point of view across, making it all sound so believable and excellent fodder for the gullible.
He's been emulated many times in this respect.......

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Old 20th Nov 2019, 08:56
  #11577 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Krystal n chips View Post
He's been emulated many times in this respect.......
Has he (Farage) been emulated, or is he emulating the successful strategy of some pretty serious, and dangerous politicians over the past 100 years (I name no names and will leave that to the imagination).
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Old 20th Nov 2019, 09:29
  #11578 (permalink)  
 
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But by the same token, Boris Johnson's answer to just about every question was "get Brexit done", "dither and deal" and of course "oven-ready deal".
Surely if you want to convince people that the referendum result was going to be honoured, especially after the last three odd years of watching those Westminster Muppets performing, wouldn’t most people want someone who was keen to use any opportunity to get that message across even if he does look like a bumbling fool, rather than either not answer the questions, or worse still start on about another year or two of delay and prevarication on Brexit that Labour would bring if they got into power.
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Old 20th Nov 2019, 09:36
  #11579 (permalink)  
 
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I am quite sure there is no 'oven-ready' deal, and that the trade discusions after 'Brexit is done' will be long and difficult. All trade deals take time, some for many years. Even though both the UK and EU will want to negotiate a good trade deal, the devil is in the details, as any trade negotiator will tell you. I wouldn't be surprised if it takes anywhere up to five years.

And as for a trade deal with the US, just think how difficult that will be when Trump holds the whip hand. The UK will be negotiating from a position of weakness.

I wish it were otherwise, but that is the reality.
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Old 20th Nov 2019, 09:54
  #11580 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Bergerie1 View Post
I am quite sure there is no 'oven-ready' deal, and that the trade discusions after 'Brexit is done' will be long and difficult. All trade deals take time, some for many years. Even though both the UK and EU will want to negotiate a good trade deal, the devil is in the details, as any trade negotiator will tell you. I wouldn't be surprised if it takes anywhere up to five years.

And as for a trade deal with the US, just think how difficult that will be when Trump holds the whip hand. The UK will be negotiating from a position of weakness.

I wish it were otherwise, but that is the reality.
Bearing in mind the obvious issues relating to a UK / EU trade deal, especially when the UK also wants a deal with the USA, our chances of leaving transition on 31st December 2020 are just about nil, or slightly less than that. After he has won the election (supposing he does win) he'll have 5 years to get a proper deal done, and Johnson won't be inclined to walk away from transition with no deal so early in that situation.

As for a US trade deal, I suspect there will be no serious talks until after the US presidential election next November, since with a rather less volatile incumbent in the White House it may be somewhat less fraught to get a deal, that is one that won't be torn up through an early hours tweet because someone in the UK has ruffled the President's feathers. If Trump wins next November, which looks quite likely, then we'll have to live with what we've got, and either make a desperate (bad) with his administration or carry on as we are, which makes a comprehensive free trade agreement with the EU even more imperative, and which ought to be rather more easily achieved than one with the Trump administration, even if negotiations extend beyond the end of 2020.
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