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UK Politics Hamsterwheel MkII

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UK Politics Hamsterwheel MkII

Old 9th Dec 2018, 22:08
  #1101 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
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Surely the obvious solution is that the UK just stays in the EU, but pays much less money in. Also at the same time ignoring the rules and regulations that are deemed unacceptable. The EU could not object to that. After all, that is what many East European & Mediterranean countries have been doing for years..........
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Old 9th Dec 2018, 23:32
  #1102 (permalink)  
 
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ATNotts: I beg to differ with you re customs procedures pre EU membership.
My first job after leaving school was with a shipping agent in Liverpool. To be honest, I loved it in the beginning but that wore off.
Goods arriving in the port were offloaded and placed in a warehouse. Just an ordinary warehouse, no customs about it, except for bonded goods which went to a bonded warehouse. Paperwork was lodged with Customs before the ship arrived and HM Customs did random checks on the shipments or samples thereof. Occasionally I would have to go the ship and meet with the customs officers and the wharfinger and only once did I see anything that looked a bit tedious or time consuming. That was when a shipment of canned fruit arrived and I had to be present while the customs officers chose various tins from within the shipment. They noted the weight etc data on the tin. They then weighed the tin. Once that was done, they opened the tin removed the contents and weighed the contents and the empty tin to ensure everything tallied. Once that was done and they were happy, paperwork was signed off, the wharfinger arranged for the repacking and issued me with a Calling Forward Notice, which was my ompany's instruction to arrange transport from the docks. The only other part of my day that could be a bit tedious with HM Customs involved goods subject to 'Drawback'. It seems this mainly revolved around sugar and sugar products and was vaguely similar to VAT in that a duty was payable on arrival at the port, then portions or even the whole of the duty would be reclaimed by the importer, depending on what happened to the sugar and whether or not it was re-exported. Normally, there were no long waits in warehouses etc. And there was no shipment from the docks to a distribution centre either. Stuff was collected by the customer's haulier and delivered to their premises. The first I ever saw of distribution centres was when they started preparations for container traffic. One other tedious routine was the need for Certificates of Origin to be taken around various Consulates for legalising (a rubber stamp and payment of fees).
Which brings me back to why I fell out of love with the job. Initially, I was out of the office 90% of my time, sorting paperwork with the Mersey Docks and Harbour Board, HM Customs and the shipping lines plus visiting ships and warehouses arranging for stuff to be collected, getting customs clearances etc. I made the mistake of being rather good at it and found myself promoted twice by the time I was 17, and in charge of 2 other lads who were doing my job. My time was now mainly in the office, shuffling papers. One day while returning from the Portuguese consulate, having sorted some Certificates of Origin, I had time to muse about how fed up I was as the job was no longer as enjoyable as it had been. My route back to the office took me past the Army recruiting centre. A quick left turn into there, had a chat, took the exams, chose a trade and 10 days later I was on a train to Catterick!
Incidentally, re various references to the "JIT system":. In the 1980s I did a course with my employer on this topic and the first thing they stressed was "It is NOT Just In Time. It is Just On Time". Everyone seems to have forgotten that now. And there is a subtle difference between the two terms. One could say "My train arrived on time", but to say "My train arrived just in time" would imply something different.
Just saying ....
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Old 10th Dec 2018, 05:52
  #1103 (permalink)  
 
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Reminds me of my time in logistics and thinking Just in Time being an awful name for the scenario.

For example. We used to have to deliver goods to a well known large supermarket chain. The delivery driver was given a 15 minute slot. If he was early he’d have to wait outside the warehouse somewhere. If he was late he was quite simply turned away. At first I thought it was madness. Surely the warehouse needed the goods in the warehouse, and it did. But it needed the predictability of delivery and certain knowledge when a loading bay would be free and when it was occupied more.

People who can mitigate the disruption. (Be they hauliers or warehouses that charge through the nose for last minute ops) are going to make a fortune in a no deal case. Everyone else is just going to pay more. And that will become the new normal. Even when things stabilise. Prices very very rarely go down when costs go down.
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Old 10th Dec 2018, 08:14
  #1104 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by back to Boeing View Post
Reminds me of my time in logistics and thinking Just in Time being an awful name for the scenario.

For example. We used to have to deliver goods to a well known large supermarket chain. The delivery driver was given a 15 minute slot. If he was early he’d have to wait outside the warehouse somewhere. If he was late he was quite simply turned away. At first I thought it was madness. Surely the warehouse needed the goods in the warehouse, and it did. But it needed the predictability of delivery and certain knowledge when a loading bay would be free and when it was occupied more.

People who can mitigate the disruption. (Be they hauliers or warehouses that charge through the nose for last minute ops) are going to make a fortune in a no deal case. Everyone else is just going to pay more. And that will become the new normal. Even when things stabilise. Prices very very rarely go down when costs go down.
Ah yes, supermarkets! As you say, arrive early and you wait, at your cost for your delivery slot. Arrive late, and get turned away, arrive on time and the unloading process is delayed, still your fault and your cost - the supermarkets take responsibility for nothing!

KelvinD

Interesting observations on the import process at Liverpool. I was involved pretty well exclusively with short sea road operations, where you haven'y got the luxury of time, with freight on the ocean for weeks. Of course on the flip side you had all the complexities dealing with Cert of origin, bills of lading and very possibly uncontainerised conventional vessels - from your declared age you must have been right on the cusp of that era. Docks were much more interesting in those days.
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Old 10th Dec 2018, 08:39
  #1105 (permalink)  
 
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It really is time, in view of the gilet jaune protests success in allaying proposed fuel tax increases in France that those in opposition to the current chaos went pro active. Personally I would like to see something along the lines of a Council Tax embargo. Those taking part would agree to physically prevent either bailiffs or arresting officers who acted against those involved. I suggested this to my neighbours yesterday and they thought it was a spiffing idea. Admittedly they are both old CND'ers but I think this would attract a middle class mobilisation of mammoth proportions and would be tricky for the authorities to counter.
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Old 10th Dec 2018, 08:42
  #1106 (permalink)  
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
 
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ATNotts, docks indeed, scoop up peanuts or tea off the dock side where the stevedores had deliberately damaged boxes and sacks with bill hooks, or goods stashed in an emptied hold. Gave rise to the wheel barrow - dock police joke.

Then as Kevin might remember, the dock strikes for loss of perks when containers came in.
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Old 10th Dec 2018, 09:00
  #1107 (permalink)  
 
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https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotla...itics-46481643

That changes things a little. Until today's ruling, the Peoples Vote campaign didn't know whether or not a new vote could make any difference, as there was no consensus as to whether the UK was in a position to withdraw Art.50 in cooperation with the EU, let alone unilaterally, and apparently we could carry on as we are now, with all the opt outs and rebates in place. It makes the whole question of a new vote less theory, and more practical.

Of course with arch Brexiteer Corbyn in charge of Labour the chances of getting a motion for a new referendum through the Commons are small at present, his first line of attack is a futile vote of no confidence. Anyway I really am not sure that another simple majority, binary question would produce anything more decisive than the vote we had in June 2016, and would leave the UK just as divided as it is now, whichever way the vote went.

Probably the best bet is still Mrs. May's plan, but I really done believe that MPs get it. If she is kicked out, and replaced by a right winger, then the chances of getting that commons vote for a referendum would, ironically improved, and no Brexit may become a higher possibility which would be exactly the reverse of what such a new Conservative leader would have desired. As Mrs May says, it's either her deal, or potentially no Brexit since parliament won't sanction a no deal option.
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Old 10th Dec 2018, 09:41
  #1108 (permalink)  
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
 
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Interesting snippet in today’s POLITICO.

Background is is that everyone is now factoring in a leadership election against TM in the next couple of weeks before Xmas. All the big remaining Tory beasts with a chance, eg. Javid, Hunt, Johnson, are declaring for a “managed” no-deal. Why? Because they know the election will be won between the last two in the membership vote, and polls show over 70% in favour of that option.

On on the basis that will occur, there seems to be an acceptance that the present HoC will not vote for that option, and a PM pushing for it needs a majority in the House. The growing view being that the winner would go for a snap election, which Labour would support. I presume those looking at the figures think there are far more floating voters in marginal constituencies in the north who would vote for a Brexit/Con ticket than a Remain/Lab ticket. That even now under TM the Conservatives have a 5% lead in the polls - which would only increase under a new leader unlikely to run such a disastrous campaign.

POLITICO:

”As discussed ad nauseam, there’s simply no majority in this parliament for no deal. Which poses the question — could parliament actually stop a no-deal scenario if faced by a prime minister aggressively pursuing one? We can’t know for sure, although Labour figures insist they could do it via amendments to essential government legislation. If that doesn’t work, you could even imagine a handful of hardcore Tory Remainers bringing down the government via a vote of no confidence rather than allowing, say, Prime Minister Johnson to drag Britain out without a deal.

Either way, the likely outcome would be a general election, with a newly anointed Brexiteer PM running a populist campaign to try to win a mandate for a no-deal Brexit. This prospect is now being openly discussed by Brexiteer strategists, who believe they could win by painting Labour as the party of Remain.”.....
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Old 10th Dec 2018, 09:49
  #1109 (permalink)  
 
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If there was any doubt that the ECJ was a political adjunct to the Commission, look at how this judgement (total time application to judgement about 1 month) compares to the usual 2-3 years. Anyone might think the EU is desperate to stop Brexit happening.
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Old 10th Dec 2018, 10:00
  #1110 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Fitter2 View Post
If there was any doubt that the ECJ was a political adjunct to the Commission, look at how this judgement (total time application to judgement about 1 month) compares to the usual 2-3 years. Anyone might think the EU is desperate to stop Brexit happening.
Definitely not. The EU Commission is not best pleased at the outcome, and I'm sure that after the UK debacle, how ever it plays out, there will be plans to tighten up Art.50, which by the look of it was drafted in haste, and not particularly diligently almost as an afterthought, on the basis that it would never be used anyway.

I think the court probably appreciated the urgency of the ruling, since it was brought for a purpose, by a group of people from a country that had invoked the article. Can't help thinking the timing of the Advocate General's initial opinion, and the publication of the verdict were perfect, verging upon contrived.
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Old 10th Dec 2018, 10:03
  #1111 (permalink)  
 
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Or time is of the essence, depends on how you look at things. In the circumstances, a judgement on this in May 2019 would be less than useful and great to discover politics is political. Amazballs.
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Old 10th Dec 2018, 10:12
  #1112 (permalink)  
 
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Quelle surprise! The European Court rules that article 50 can be overturned by U.K. so all those trips to Brussels by traitorous snakes like Blair, Adonis, Campbell, Cable Mandleson pays off.

who would have thunk it!
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Old 10th Dec 2018, 10:20
  #1113 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by vctenderness View Post
Quelle surprise! The European Court rules that article 50 can be overturned by U.K. so all those trips to Brussels by traitorous snakes like Blair, Adonis, Campbell, Cable Mandleson pays off.

who would have thunk it!
The European Court is not political; though I doubt many Brexiteers will agree. Strangely, none of the persons mentioned has had anything to do with this case, and they certainly wouldn't have been in a position to lobby the judges.
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Old 10th Dec 2018, 10:45
  #1114 (permalink)  
 
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One of the first questions raised in the European parliament following the referendum concerned the future prospects for young people living in Britain.

These are the 16-18 year olds who were denied a choice to vote on their own futures and stripped overnight of their status as EU citizens. They now face the prospects of being reduced to citizens of nowhere.

This was the A level student generation who, it is suggested, were 82% in favour to remain. The same Tory tactics were also used to exclude British nationals resident in an EU member state beyond a certain period.

In the second half of 2016 (a crucial period) Theresa May was all over the map. Everywhere, anywhere, except face to face with her EU counterparts. Trade delegations were dispatched to China, India, Turkey, the Gulf, everywhere, anywhere except Europe, to declare Britain was "open for business". This push for Britain climaxed in December 2016 with May standing on the deck of HMS Ocean during a visit to Bahrain and sharing her vision for a red, white and blue brexit. Whatever that means.

So who was standing up for the rights of the next generation in Britain who were disenfranchised by their own government?

That would be the EU Negotiator who FAST TRACKED an amendment, tabled by an MEP from Luxembourg in November 2016, which would have allowed British citizens the option to apply for EU Associate Membership.

That sounds like a very generous offer and a perfect solution but Theresa May had other ideas. Her solution to deliver the will of the people is to bring EU citizens rights in line with UK nationals from 30 March 2022.

If that scenario seems unacceptable then assume the position, and standby to get well and truly reamed. There are ugly reports that backers who funded the leave campaign are now shorting the UK economy.
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Old 10th Dec 2018, 10:54
  #1115 (permalink)  
 
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It's at times like this I thank my dear old dad for having the foresight to be born a Paddy.
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Old 10th Dec 2018, 10:59
  #1116 (permalink)  
 
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sfm818: I struggle to see why you object to all people living in the UK having the same rights. Strangely enough, if you go and live in the USA, Canada, India etc your EU citizen rights are subservient to the laws of the country you are in as would be expected.
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Old 10th Dec 2018, 11:13
  #1117 (permalink)  
 
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Quelle surprise... The European Court makes a ruling that reinforces the fact that the U.K. actually does have sovereignty, that the U.K. actually has control over the Article 50 process and yet the usual Brexit suspects here start grumbling....there’s no pleasing some people....



Last edited by wiggy; 10th Dec 2018 at 13:41.
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Old 10th Dec 2018, 11:21
  #1118 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by ATNotts View Post
The European Court is not political; though I doubt many Brexiteers will agree. Strangely, none of the persons mentioned has had anything to do with this case, and they certainly wouldn't have been in a position to lobby the judges.
Exactly. Probably another dim wit Daily Mail reader who cannot think for themselves.

What never ceases to amaze me is that some people associate Labour/ left of centre opinioned people are desperate to bring this country down.

And yet it is a Conservative administration previously lead by David Cameron who, due to their lack of foresight has lead this country to an incredibly damaging and divisive referendum with no idea at all how to extricate it from this self inflicted shambles.
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Old 10th Dec 2018, 11:21
  #1119 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by wiggy View Post
Quelle surprise... The European Court makes a ruling that reinforces the fact that the U.K. actually does have sovereignty, that the U.K. actually has control over the Article 50 process and yet the usual Brexit reporting suspects here start grumbling....there’s no pleasing some people....

Also worth noting those who would support the Conservative party uber alles that the British government fought this case tooth-and-nail. First it tried to appeal at the Supreme Court, then it was fighting it in Europe. While it has been careful not to mention the case in public, in private it has deploying a frenzied and panicked legal attack.

This was a British government spending British taxpayers' cash on trying to limit our own national sovereignty. They were trying to escape a clear statement about the powers held by the British parliament, simply because that power happened to entail unilateral revocation of Article 50.
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Old 10th Dec 2018, 11:27
  #1120 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by LowNSlow View Post
... I struggle to see why you object to all people living in the UK having the same rights...
People living in different parts of the UK did not vote to have the same rights. This is a fact. Study the demographics.

The point here is the comptetence of Theresa May to negotiate in the best interests of those who were denied a chance to vote on their futures. Did she exhasust every effort to explore the option for EU Associate Membership, or have her 'best endeavours' focused on preserving the Union

Remember her first action as prime minister was to RACE north of the border to meet the First Minister for Scotland and make whatever promises were necessary to avoid a break up of the United Kingdom.

This failed to address a glaring detail exposed by the referendum. That the United Kingdom was already fragmented. To suggest UK nationals will share the same rights in 2019 or 2022 or any other time in the future, does not reflect the will of the people. It is utterly disingenuous and a complete betrayal. Particularly for the younger generation.

Time for a general election to sort this mess out.
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