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UK Politics Hamsterwheel MkII

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UK Politics Hamsterwheel MkII

Old 9th Dec 2018, 11:14
  #1081 (permalink)  
 
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Nearly all of it a fair & accurate summary imo.
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Old 9th Dec 2018, 11:56
  #1082 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by pax britanica View Post
"I dont care about travelling to Europe because we always go to Tenerfie on holiday" all of which have been said on chat shows and phone ins
And on the overall scale of #brexiter ignorance and stupidity that one, I'm sad to say, hardly moves the needle off the end-stop these days. (The selfishness is routine for them of course.)
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Old 9th Dec 2018, 13:21
  #1083 (permalink)  
 
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I respond to the comments made of my reference to Nick Timothy. I have no time for the man who, I suspect, was the architect of so many of the wretched Maybot's blunders. I merely quoted his succinct and painfully accurate assessment of the current situation. It has taken the objectivity of an interested "third party" (Pattern is Full) to bring a less partisan view to a subject which has been made intractable by the ineptitude of a government sort-of-led by a duplicitous Prime Minister.

For many years I was privileged to live in the United States. Early on, I dated a woman who was a lawyer and more savvy of things than the average waitress at Denny's, so I was very surprised when she opened her handbag and inadvertently revealed a pistol. I asked her if she was expecting to be robbed or suffer some personal assault; I was astonished by her reply. "Oh no! This is to protect me from the government". That a citizen should require such protection from his/her own government was a notion incomprehensible to me. Later, when I came to understand the States' Rights and other specifically American issues, I began to have an empathy with this point of view and how it arose. Perhaps Pattern will see where I'm coming from.

This tale in no sense provides a direct parallel with our situation in the UK but by using every trick, deceit and subterfuge, the establishment has sought to browbeat Parliament into nodding through this agreement which is claimed to be the best that reasonably can be achieved. Rubbish! This agreement is the inevitable result of stupendous incompetence, an obsession with ending free movement at the expense of just about everything else. It's also a manifestation of the elite's terror of real change - it is the very antithesis of what the public, in the nation's greatest democratic exercise in history, voted for. We had thought to have reasoned argument, evidential and philosophical; both sides would accept the rationality and conscientiousness of the other's position. This has not happened - instead we have fractious polemics which do nothing beyond secure evermore entrenched positions. The referendum gave the politicians a very clear mandate - a return to independent self-government. Two years ago, the public failed to be cowed by the disgraceful antics of those embracing Project Fear (now apparently "Project Impossible") and demonstrated a faith in the potential of the country. It never occurred to these people that centuries of accepted democratic principle would be allowed to be upturned by a minority of self-promoting quislings. We shall be able to survive well enough under WTO rule, despite what has been written, (in some measure we already do) and it is nonsense to claim that this is not an option. Seeking this should have been the government's premise right at the beginning - it would have avoided all this present turmoil.

We are not facing an economic crisis, rather we are facing a profound political crisis which Parliament has brought on itself and the country. The problem is that out-of-touch and self-serving MPs are determined to thwart the expressed will of the electorate and equally determined to bind our future to a declining and manifestly unpleasant body. I'm not suggesting that we adopt anything like the Second Amendment but it is not very far-fetched to suppose that the unrest and insurrection currently seen in France and elsewhere on the Continent might erupt on the streets of our green and could-again-be pleasant land. To potentially have been stitched up by the EU was to be expected; to be so treated by the purblind British governing class and its failure to understand this country and what drove it to depart from the EU in spite of all the risks and calumny this might invite, is unforgivable.

Sadly, the greatest casualty in all this mess is democracy. Over the centuries, this country has made inumerable sacrifices in defence of democracy and the people will not forgive an administration which squanders them.
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Old 9th Dec 2018, 13:36
  #1084 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Gertrude the Wombat View Post
And on the overall scale of #brexiter ignorance and stupidity that one, I'm sad to say, hardly moves the needle off the end-stop these days. (The selfishness is routine for them of course.)
And heard on BBC R4 World This Weekend a vox pop say words to the effect that "they should just get on with it.....I think the concerns about problems if we leave with no deal are just propaganda....I'm not qualified to say if Mrs May has got a good deal, I don't know enough".

Frankly, words fail me.
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Old 9th Dec 2018, 13:43
  #1085 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Gipsy Queen View Post
The referendum gave the politicians a very clear mandate.
I have a problem with the veracity of that,


Originally Posted by Gipsy Queen View Post
We shall be able to survive well enough under WTO rule

I have a problem with the veracity of that,

Elsewhere, you blame the EU for everything. I guess you really must be a Nick Timothy disciple. Why s it the case that every single Brexit supporter cannot own the car crash they caused? You did this, take responsibility. It's not the EU's fault, it;'s not the Tory party's fault, it's 17 million people voting for something they manifestly failed to understand, have some courage for once & admit it.
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Old 9th Dec 2018, 13:45
  #1086 (permalink)  
 
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I wonder how many UK politicians are more interested in keeping the options going for a cushy number in Brussels after they have been thrown out of Westminster.
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Old 9th Dec 2018, 14:19
  #1087 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Fareastdriver View Post
I wonder how many UK politicians are more interested in keeping the options going for a cushy number in Brussels after they have been thrown out of Westminster.
Not very many, there are only two UK commissioners, so the competition would be fierce. That said, I'm sure that Boris Johnson and Michael Gove would jump at the chance!
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Old 9th Dec 2018, 14:43
  #1088 (permalink)  
 
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Much as I know Brexiteers hate listening to people who really know what they are talking about, and would rather stick their fingers in their ears and shout "la la la" it really is about time that those people we have elected to run the country ran it, in the best interests of the country, rather than in the interests of their tribe or hiding behind the rather stupid mantra that is "the will of the people" (which of course it wasn't - it was the will of a small majority of the people, based on a turn out of less than 3/4 of those qualified to vote).
I am neither a member of a tribe nor hiding behind a stupid Mantra, regardless of what you think, it was a referendum and those of the country that cared enough to vote exercised that right and voted to leave, polls tend to take a sample of people to come up with a realistic figure, so even if every Tom, Dick and Harriet in this country voted, logic says the result would have been more or less the same, to use the only a small portion turned out to vote to try and push across your agenda because you did not like the result is insullting to the democratic process as well as to the majority of voters on this point. You could run that little scenario for every general election if the result does not agree with your view.
You say we hate listening to those that know, that is a none starter until the scenario has been played out, it could be the opposite, I am of an age to know that the UK stood on its own two feet prior to joining this farce under the ploy of a Common Market, a sensible in my eyes system, but it's all the dross that was slipped into it in later years and foisted upon us I object too.

And on another note, shame we scrapped those water canon, it looks like the French would have welcomed their purchase, so much for unity in Europe.
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Old 9th Dec 2018, 16:21
  #1089 (permalink)  
 
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I am of an age to know that the UK stood on its own two feet prior to joining this farce under the ploy of a Common Market, a sensible in my eyes system, but it's all the dross that was slipped into it in later years and foisted upon us I object too.
Therein lies the problem; you and I can both remember a time before the single market and customs union. However, I am assuming that you weren't working at that time in international trade, where all imports had to be brought into a customs warehouse or inland clearance depot (ICD) where the goods were unloaded, shipments individually cleared through customs, duty paid and then goods collected from the ICD and taken to a domestic warehouse, where they were distributed to their customers. This process was an almighty, but necessary faff, and totally useless for a JIT delivery system which not only manufactures, but also retailers now rely on.

It's great living in the past, but that isn't the present and can't be the future. It is however the basis upon which many voters cast their votes.
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Old 9th Dec 2018, 16:23
  #1090 (permalink)  
 
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There is a general upswell of discontent on the move these days.
Symptoms include BrExit, the election of a rank outsider like Trump and the current difficulties en France.

Folk are getting pissed off at being shafted. (and btw, it's about fcuking time!).

You anti-brexit folk are going to be the last to get the message, and for good reasons.

It's bad reasons that drives the agenda.Don't misunderstand me, it's nice to have a vote, but when you are fcuked over year after year, there comes a point. Ask le Frogoise?

The poor bloody British will tolerate anything, not so le frog.

Watch out! There's more a-coming!
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Old 9th Dec 2018, 17:10
  #1091 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Nomad2 View Post
There is a general upswell of discontent on the move these days.
Symptoms include BrExit, the election of a rank outsider like Trump and the current difficulties en France.

Folk are getting pissed off at being shafted. (and btw, it's about fcuking time!).

You anti-brexit folk are going to be the last to get the message, and for good reasons.

It's bad reasons that drives the agenda.Don't misunderstand me, it's nice to have a vote, but when you are fcuked over year after year, there comes a point. Ask le Frogoise?

The poor bloody British will tolerate anything, not so le frog.

Watch out! There's more a-coming!
You're undoubtedly right about the rise of the downtrodden. That is clear to see, but their quarrel isn't with the EU, even though they might believe it is.

The problem is essentially with globalisation, mechanisation and the inexorable rise in disparity of the wealth of the few, versus the earning of the average person on the metaphorical coal face. The UK and the USA have been more than happy to allow this to continue unabated, and in reality it's the EU through it's social policies (the ones the UK hasn't secured opt out from at least) has been the champion of the underdog.

Brexit will only exacerbate the problems, particularly if the UK is hell bent on getting a trade agreement with the USA, which will surely only bring more American work practices to the UK; not immediately, but over time. This will become obvious after we've left the EU, when it's too late to stop it. That may be when the fun will really begin, politically.

By the way, there really is no need to stoop to quasi language of the gutter- misspelling foul language doesn't make right.
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Old 9th Dec 2018, 17:16
  #1092 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Nomad2 View Post
Folk are getting pissed off at being shafted. (and btw, it's about fcuking time!)
Absolutely agree....but now you will have to explain to me how turning the U.K. into a low regulation Singapore on Thames, run/steered by free market, social legislation hating types like JRM, Banks and Johnson is going to stop the people being p***ed off.

If people are p*****d off now they sure as heck are going to be p****d very quickly off if we exit on WTO terms....JRM is having a laugh if he thinks the population will patiently wait a few decades to see the results of Brexit he is hoping for

The poor bloody British will tolerate anything, not so le frog.

Watch out! There's more a-coming!
I suspect you are right...and it won’t be funny...

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Old 9th Dec 2018, 17:21
  #1093 (permalink)  
 
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The real point is that for the last 20 years UK politicians have blamed Brussls for all our ills, whether or not EU policies had anything to do with them. At least with Brexit the buck will stop in Westminster, where it should have done all along. It is way past time our politicians were held to account for their actions and not allowed to pass the blame elsewhere.
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Old 9th Dec 2018, 17:42
  #1094 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by ATNotts View Post

...Much as I would like to remain in the EU, I am 100% behind the May / EU plan (and it is a joint agreement not Mrs. May's), flawed though it is. ...
Much as I would like to leave the EU, I too am sort of behind the May/EU plan. I qualify that by saying say 'sort of' because I have concerns over the ability of the UK to leave after two years leading on from what appears to be the main difficulty in sorting out the EU/Eire/UK problem. I think it is acknowledged now that if the issue hasn't been sorted out after two years of 'best endeavours' by both the UK and the EU then the UK will face an uncertain future with regards the Customs Union etc. France has already indicated, stated even, that if they don't get their way with access to UK fishing waters then they will play the veto card and not allow us to leave at all. We cannot allow this to happen.

I would rather expand the 2 year transition period to say 3 years, or even 4, the end point being that we can and will unilaterally leave the customs union if we choose after that period. This will, I think, deeply focus minds on both sides of the channel to sort out the Eire/NI problem.

Last edited by yellowtriumph; 9th Dec 2018 at 17:53.
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Old 9th Dec 2018, 17:47
  #1095 (permalink)  
 
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Therein lies the problem; you and I can both remember a time before the single market and customs union. However, I am assuming that you weren't working at that time in international trade, where all imports had to be brought into a customs warehouse or inland clearance depot (ICD) where the goods were unloaded, shipments individually cleared through customs, duty paid and then goods collected from the ICD and taken to a domestic warehouse, where they were distributed to their customers. This process was an almighty, but necessary faff, and totally useless for a JIT delivery system which not only manufactures, but also retailers now rely on.

It's great living in the past, but that isn't the present and can't be the future. It is however the basis upon which many voters cast their votes.

Not all imports coming into the UK are from the EU and the rest of the world manages to work a JIT system without being part of the EU, which makes that rather a moot point..
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Old 9th Dec 2018, 17:50
  #1096 (permalink)  
 
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Not p++ed off, just my post 1089 was in response to some of the most condescending garbage I have read on here in a while.
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Old 9th Dec 2018, 17:51
  #1097 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by NutLoose View Post
Not all imports coming into the UK are from the EU and the rest of the world manages to work a JIT system without being part of the EU, which makes that rather a moot point..
But you cannot deny that without the impediment of official intervention JIT works more efficiently. And, of course most of what goes into an American car originates from the USA and Canada, and most of what goes into a Japanese or Korean vehicle comes from Korea.
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Old 9th Dec 2018, 17:58
  #1098 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by yellowtriumph View Post
Much as I would like to leave the EU, I too am sort of behind the May/EU plan. I qualify that by saying say 'sort of' because I have concerns over the ability of the UK to leave after two years leading on from what appears to be the main difficulty in sorting out the EU/Eire/UK problem. I think it is acknowledged now that if the issue hasn't been sorted out after two years of 'best endeavours' by both the UK and the EU then the UK will face an uncertain future with regards the Customs Union etc. France has already indicated, stated even, that if they don't get their way with access to UK fishing waters then they will play the veto card and not allow us to leave at all. We cannot allow this to happen.

I would rather expand the 2 year transition period to say 3 years, or even 4, the end point being that we can and will unilaterally leave the customs union if we choose after that period. This will, I think, deeply focus minds on both sides of the channel to sort out the Eire/NI problem.


I largely agree with that. Worth noting on the NI question, every expression of distaste for the backstop is in effect an acknowledgement that the technology solutions so often presented by ERG types don't exist. In short, we will be at this for at least a decade, It is the defining issue of a generation & I weep for the dispossessed who are going to find out in short order that the public services they rely on won't be there for want of funding or attention.
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Old 9th Dec 2018, 19:22
  #1099 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by ATNotts View Post
But you cannot deny that without the impediment of official intervention JIT works more efficiently. And, of course most of what goes into an American car originates from the USA and Canada, and most of what goes into a Japanese or Korean vehicle comes from Korea.
JIT works on right supply lines - not short lines but continuous lines. Brexit will interrupt the supply line by increasing its length, once the supply line is restored we return to a new steady state.

a JIT delivery system which not only manufactures, but also retailers now rely on.
To restore this system prudent consumers have stocked their depots to maintain supply unti l delivers resume. To stock their warehouses they must have sufficient credit and the banks must extend credit. The same requirement for extending credit applies at the production end as well, ie both sides of the border.

I suppose the need for extra credit will cause finance issues elsewhere for example start-ups.

​​​​​​Right now there may be increased production but ultimately things should return to steady state. Phil H says years; port shippers say 6 months.
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Old 9th Dec 2018, 21:08
  #1100 (permalink)  
 
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Surely the obvious solution is that the UK just stays in the EU, but pays much less money in. Also at the same time ignoring the rules and regulations that are deemed unacceptable. The EU could not object to that. After all, that is what many East European & Mediterranean countries have been doing for years..........
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