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UK Politics Hamsterwheel MkII

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UK Politics Hamsterwheel MkII

Old 8th Dec 2018, 16:30
  #1061 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by CroqueMonsieur View Post


It was all over social media at the time. Remember we are told that a few dollars of spend by the Russians were to blame for brexit
I'm pleased you accept Brexit is deserving of blame. It's definitely an historical act of vandalism on a scale never seen in our lifetimes. As for social media, you do realise you're literally ascribing tangible benefit in the referendum to individuals scribbling away on Twitter. To remind you of your own contention:

Originally Posted by CroqueMonsieur View Post

Remain benefited from the sick animals who used Jo Cox's slaughter to encourage anti brexit and anti brexiteer sentiment.
Do you know the penetration of Twitter in the UK? It's tiny. Facevook much more so, even then the idea that only one side was at it is laughable & that brings me to your point about Russian interference. Firstly, it's beyond question that they meddled extensively in the ref. Something I find stunning among leavers is how rarely they ask why that happened? Why should a foreign murderous kleptocrat go to the lengths Putin did & continues to do, to cleave the UK away from European institutions?

Is it for altruistic reasons? Do you think Vlad has swallowed the eurosceptic press' view that Juncker is constantly stocious, Hoovers are rubbish now & light bulbs aren't all that? Or could it be the age old warriors maxim - divide & conquer/?

That this is asked so little is troubling. It's very hard to see Brexiteers as actual patriots in any meaningful sense when, as you did above, they disparage the effects of Russian interference in UK affairs whilst failing to recognise the seriousness of a foreign foe seeking to influence our democratic process at all. The word some might use for those people is quisling.
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Old 8th Dec 2018, 20:01
  #1062 (permalink)  
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https://www.theguardian.com/politics...ote-says-prodi

EU will negotiate if May loses Commons Brexit vote, says Prodi

The EU will come back to the negotiating table if parliament votes down Theresa May’s deal with Brussels, according to Romano Prodi, a former European commission president.

Prodi, who twice served as Italian prime minister and had Jean-Claude Juncker’s job until 2004, said that the EU needed to do everything it could to avoid the “economic catastrophe” of a no-deal Brexit........

Asked how he expected the commission to respond after the vote, Prodi said: “Negotiate. We must keep free trade between us because it is in the British interests and European interest. The UK has no alternative – the EU is a large part of its trade. Always the problem of Northern Ireland, but it is possible. Common sense helps.”

On the EU’s insistence there could be no more negotiations, Prodi added: “Look, when the British parliament has still to vote you are obliged to be in this position. But then of course the day after you start dealing. This is politics.”........



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Old 8th Dec 2018, 20:12
  #1063 (permalink)  
 
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So people who voted to leave are now quislings ? I suspect that the vast majority who voted knew which way they were going to vote long before 23 June 2016. Those who failed to vote because they thought (and polls predicted) a remain result must be kicking themselves very hard now. Remain lost because they focused on the negative aspect of leaving ie project fear, sky will fall in , doom and gloom rather than the positives of remaining. They only had this option because David Cameron could not secure any meaningful concessions and had very little with which he could try to convince the public that remain was the way to go.

If remain had won would those who voted to leave have had the opportunity to delay / challenge / protest in the same way as remain have because they lost. I suspect leave would have been told to respect the democratic result and shut up. Just a shame the remoaners can't do the same now.

Quoted from previous post

"It's very hard to see Brexiteers as actual patriots in any meaningful sense when, as you did above, they disparage the effects of Russian interference in UK affairs(so George Soros has no influence either then?) whilst failing to recognise the seriousness of a foreign foe seeking to influence our democratic process at all. The word some might use for those people is quisling"

The words in bold sum up the EU quite nicely as well as they have demonstrated by getting other countries who vote 'no' in other referenda to run them again until they get the result they want, if that is not seeking to influence the democratic process then I dont know what is. The quislings are those who go against the wishes of the british people which was to leave the EU
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Old 8th Dec 2018, 20:20
  #1064 (permalink)  
 
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I bet it was the same before privatisation except the taxpayer picked up the bill
You almost sound as if you are expecting something different this time? Well, it won't and to make it worse, the company's statement earlier today made it clear that they are doing their best to protect private investors but the public purse is just going to have to suck it up.
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Old 8th Dec 2018, 20:49
  #1065 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by ORAC View Post
https://www.theguardian.com/politics...ote-says-prodi

EU will negotiate if May loses Commons Brexit vote, says Prodi

The EU will come back to the negotiating table if parliament votes down Theresa May’s deal with Brussels, according to Romano Prodi, a former European commission president.


I wouldn't hold your breath - There are plenty of former politicians around with various opinions, I'm sure our former PM Mr Blair has a few, but whether they are worth listening to or actual valid??? .....

I suspect Mr Barnier will have one or two things hidden under the table, but I think the sentiment is such amongst those currently in post is that it is way too late for major renegotiations.
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Old 8th Dec 2018, 22:17
  #1066 (permalink)  
 
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Peter Lilley's contribution in the Bruges Lectures on BBC Parliament is worth a look.
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Old 9th Dec 2018, 03:47
  #1067 (permalink)  
 
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https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-46497531

May says we face uncharted waters ahead if we reject her deal....... Errrrrrrm isn't any deal or no deal all uncharted waters?
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Old 9th Dec 2018, 09:06
  #1068 (permalink)  
 
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I mean uncharted by the bleedin' EU!
It's GOT to be a no deal BrExit, we don't want their sticky hands on it, or it won't be worth having.
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Old 9th Dec 2018, 09:10
  #1069 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by paulc View Post
I suspect that the vast majority who voted knew which way they were going to vote long before 23 June 2016.
If you don't find that dispiriting, then I don't know what.


Originally Posted by paulc View Post
The words in bold sum up the EU quite nicely as well as they have demonstrated by getting other countries who vote 'no' in other referenda to run them again until they get the result they want, if that is not seeking to influence the democratic process then I dont know what is. The quislings are those who go against the wishes of the british people which was to leave the EU

By way of proving the wrong headedness of the first point, you neatly demonstrate an ignorance of history with this AND still fail to answer the substantive point of Russian interference in UK affairs. That I find the single most egregious aspect of leaver logic, that you would helpfully illustrate the willingness to sacrifice interest in our electoral independence because it suits your political aims. Depressing to see a leaver get all hot & bothered when I use the word quisling but ignore the reason I used it. QED.
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Old 9th Dec 2018, 09:13
  #1070 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Nomad2 View Post
I mean uncharted by the bleedin' EU!
It's GOT to be a no deal BrExit, we don't want their sticky hands on it, or it won't be worth having.
You're either wholly unaffected by this or completely fail to understand the consequences. No deal is by far the worst outcome for the UK. Outside of a handful of swivel eyed Tory loony MP's no one with even a passing, basic grasp of our national interests supports it.
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Old 9th Dec 2018, 09:15
  #1071 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Nomad2 View Post
I mean uncharted by the bleedin' EU!
It's GOT to be a no deal BrExit, we don't want their sticky hands on it, or it won't be worth having.
How sad, how very depressing, that the future of our once grear Britain should be in such hands.
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Old 9th Dec 2018, 09:25
  #1072 (permalink)  
 
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Remainers are happy to be in a United States of Europe. Leavers are not. It's as simple as that.
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Old 9th Dec 2018, 09:29
  #1073 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by papajuliet View Post
Remainers are happy to be in a United States of Europe. Leavers are not. It's as simple as that.
Ignorance is bliss, they tell me.
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Old 9th Dec 2018, 09:40
  #1074 (permalink)  
 
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Sprogget.
As I mentioned earlier, my days of living in Scotland are over for a while at least, and I no longer pay 51% tax to HMRC- thank Goodness, so barring a catastrophic event out here, then, yes it shouldn't affect me much.
I didn't vote, although I had one, so don't blame me.

In any case, the UKs never really been a true part of Europe, and getting this over with can only bring clarity.

I can understand the squawking of the squeezed middle, as I used to be part of it. Making a load of money, but paying a load of tax and quite frankly worried about anything which might make me worse off. I sympathise.
Leaving the EU is a sound strategic move. The other stuff is tactical by comparison and will work itself out quicker than you imagine.
I shall be watching, from afar.
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Old 9th Dec 2018, 09:55
  #1075 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Nomad2 View Post
......
As I mentioned earlier, my days of living in Scotland are over for a while at least, and I no longer pay 51% tax to HMRC- thank Goodness, so barring a catastrophic event out here, then, yes it shouldn't affect me much.
I didn't vote, although I had one, so don't blame me....
I shall be watching, from afar.
Ah, now all is completely clear, you’ve got naff all skin in the game, or at least it sounds like relatively very little, compared with some here who still benefit from FOM, work in the U.K., pay U.K. income tax, U.K. NI and also pay tax and charges elsewhere in the EU, and benefit from the various bilateral agreements on things like healthcare.....At least to your credit you didn’t vote....


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Old 9th Dec 2018, 10:01
  #1076 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by paulc View Post
I suspect that the vast majority who voted knew which way they were going to vote long before 23 June 2016.
As with all elections, they don't matter. The people who matter are the "swing voters" who make their minds up late, they're the ones who determine the result. The Leave campaign know this, which is why they poured in vast amounts of illegally funded advertising in the last few days.
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Old 9th Dec 2018, 10:01
  #1077 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Nomad2 View Post
I mean uncharted by the bleedin' EU!
It's GOT to be a no deal BrExit, we don't want their sticky hands on it, or it won't be worth having.
So the UK has a chart that can be followed safely, without losing passengers and crew overboard in a tempest of biblical proportions? I assume you have some sort of direct line to the inner sanctum that is the PM's office and the government (supposing we have one).

Fact is we don't have the foggiest idea of any sort of plan, business say that - especially the businesses that really know what they're talking about - international haulage, logistics, "just in time manufacturers" the NHS, the higher education and technology sectors!!

Many errors have been made:-
  • Holding the referendum in the first place
  • How the referendum campaign(s) were conducted
  • The timing of the Art. 50 declaration

Much as I know Brexiteers hate listening to people who really know what they are talking about, and would rather stick their fingers in their ears and shout "la la la" it really is about time that those people we have elected to run the country ran it, in the best interests of the country, rather than in the interests of their tribe or hiding behind the rather stupid mantra that is "the will of the people" (which of course it wasn't - it was the will of a small majority of the people, based on a turn out of less than 3/4 of those qualified to vote).

Much as I would like to remain in the EU, I am 100% behind the May / EU plan (and it is a joint agreement not Mrs. May's), flawed though it is.
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Old 9th Dec 2018, 10:05
  #1078 (permalink)  
 
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Wiggy.
Yes. I feel sorry for any high earner in the UK that's unable to avoid PAYE. Been there, done that, but no longer.
The UK is a fundamentally unfair place to be in the above situation, and it really was getting up my nose.
But there are plenty of other reasons to complain about things and the working class have more than most. The
Government completely ignores them apart from telling them to shut up.
Millions of people are completely fed up with how things are going in the UK- thus this BrExit thing.
There's no answer without a big change, and maybe BrExit will help to bring it.
I hope so.
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Old 9th Dec 2018, 10:57
  #1079 (permalink)  
 
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What a mess we are in
UK is asm much part of Europe as any other country-the fact there is a large river between us ids pointless.
Re negotiate Mrs Mays deal -what with Boris leading the charge-lots of hot air then penal tariffs on our goods and doubling the divorce bill. The man is a proven incompetent in Government a cheat and a lair so forget him.
Surely even Sun readers arent that thick.

And this is the nasty tricky point-its a bit like you cannot say some things because people might claim they are racist. In this case though there is huge divide along the lines of education and awareness but the truth is that people who have spent a long time working in global businesses and travel a lot and went to uni (i didnt ) mostly seem to have voted remain because they understand the issues. On the other side you have the elderly (of which I am one) who are still fighting WW2 beyond make Britain Great again and we should have an Empire again and I dont care about travelling to Europe because we always go to Tenerfie on holiday all of which have been said on chat shows and phone ins and who in a great many cases really do not understand the issues and who have been lied to and mislead by a group of vile evil traitors like Rees-Mogg and Farage and the Tory right who are still fighting the Napoleonic wars (even though we were actually just the leaders of a huge coalition) and want to see Britain returned to the days of the enclosures when poor people knew their place. Johnson and the renegotiate group are just idiots, why will there be a betetr deal for them just because Boris can say something vaguely Churchillian . A senior Norwegian politician on TV last week said that the EU marginals -the EFTA group do not want Britain in it because we cannot keep our word and will immediately try and change things resulting in damage to their group as a result of our damage to our own country.
So sadly it comes down to people who understand it voted remain, people who havent got a clue about the EU believed read the Mail or Sun voted leave at the behest of a Russian funded group of venal hypocritical traitors.
Theresa who hase been treated even more appallingly than John Major by her own Party come out and say theres going to be a new referendum and by the way I am the Palace about to ask the Queen to dissolve parliament if you dont like it.
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Old 9th Dec 2018, 11:09
  #1080 (permalink)  
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Well, there is what I call a steam of unconsciousness....
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