Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > PPRuNe Social > Jet Blast
Reload this Page >

UK Politics Hamsterwheel MkII

Jet Blast Topics that don't fit the other forums. Rules of Engagement apply.

UK Politics Hamsterwheel MkII

Old 27th Sep 2019, 11:07
  #10661 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Southwold
Age: 68
Posts: 0
After various opinion polling we do have a few council results that give us a pointer to how things are going.

Icknield: Lab 36.7 (-5.6)
Tory 35.4 (-8.8)
LD. 25.6 (+12.1)

Labour gained this seat by virtue of having a smaller loss of vote to the LD's than the Tories.

Ipswich. Lab 50.2 (-3.7)
LD. 19.6 (+10.3)
Tory 19.0 (-6.2)

A safe Labour seat retained. LD vote doubled to take second place.

​​​​​​​
Effluent Man is offline  
Old 27th Sep 2019, 11:33
  #10662 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2019
Location: French Alps
Posts: 326
Originally Posted by Effluent Man View Post
It is only since June 2016 that things such as the Irish question have come out. I agree that uniting Ireland is the only solution. This is the reason we now need Ref2.
Not intending to cast reproach, but how come "how on earth will they do with NI ?" was on everyone's mind in Europe, and yet nobody in the UK gave it a thought before the referendum ?

And yes the Brexit is a step on the path towards united Ireland.

Fly Aiprt is offline  
Old 27th Sep 2019, 11:43
  #10663 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Southwold
Age: 68
Posts: 0
I am pretty sure it wasn't part of the campaign. I read and watch politics constantly bit don't recall it being raised as an issue.
Effluent Man is offline  
Old 27th Sep 2019, 11:49
  #10664 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2018
Location: Wolverhampton
Posts: 2
Originally Posted by Effluent Man View Post
I am pretty sure it wasn't part of the campaign. I read and watch politics constantly bit don't recall it being raised as an issue.
Of course not. The Brexit voters were all 'blinded by the light' of 350 millions for the NHS, and other lies.
To paraphrase the Doctor talking to JRM - What is the acceptable mortality rate of trying to unite the island of Ireland.
sixchannel is offline  
Old 27th Sep 2019, 12:54
  #10665 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2019
Location: French Alps
Posts: 326
The Brexit affair is deadlocked :
Lots of lies and ignorance in the Leave decision.
Dealing after leaving as opposed as before doesn't seem reasonable.
Yet Brits don't want a Deal because of the NI border backstop.
Leavers are against a second referendum because it would be "against the will of the people"
General Elections won't change anything about the Deal/No-Deal/NI problem.

The people concerned with the NI in the UK are the people of NI.

Just ask what their will is.
Organize a binding referendum with two simple and well considered questions along those lines :
When and if the UK leaves the EU, where would you prefer the border controls to be :
a) NI ports and airports (= "in the Irish Sea")
b) NI/Ireland roads, crossings, etc. (= "Land hard border")

This would be democratic : will of the People
No backstop needed, PM and partisans save face and can sign the amended deal.
This British soap opera is ended.
The Four Green Fields might bloom once again...;-)
Fly Aiprt is offline  
Old 27th Sep 2019, 13:13
  #10666 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: London/Oxford/New York
Posts: 2,429
Fly Aipt,

One big flaw in what you propose, and that is that the border is a border between two nations, so you should pose any related questions to the whole of Ireland.
pr00ne is offline  
Old 27th Sep 2019, 13:23
  #10667 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2019
Location: French Alps
Posts: 326
Originally Posted by pr00ne View Post
Fly Aipt,

One big flaw in what you propose, and that is that the border is a border between two nations, so you should pose any related questions to the whole of Ireland.
Agreed. Had thought of that.
But given the Brexit decision with only UK citizens voting while involving borders between one country and 27 others...

But yes, it would be most democratic to leave those two nations sort out the problem between themselves.
Why would the English, Welsh and Scots interfere with the will of NI's people ?
What say you, Leavers^^?
Fly Aiprt is offline  
Old 27th Sep 2019, 13:34
  #10668 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2018
Location: Yorkshire
Posts: 132
Northern Ireland is as much a part of Britain as Brittany is a part of France and Limburgh is a part of The Netherlands.
NoelEvans is offline  
Old 27th Sep 2019, 13:36
  #10669 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2018
Location: Yorkshire
Posts: 132
I wonder how many people trying to 'solve' Northern Ireland's 'problems' have ever visited Northern Ireland?
NoelEvans is offline  
Old 27th Sep 2019, 13:37
  #10670 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2018
Location: Wolverhampton
Posts: 2
Originally Posted by NoelEvans View Post
Northern Ireland is as much a part of Britain as Brittany is a part of France and Limburgh is a part of The Netherlands.
And thereby is the Dilemma which should have been spelled out forcefully by the Remainers, instead of being all smug, sitting on their hands and expecting a sure victory.
sixchannel is offline  
Old 27th Sep 2019, 13:53
  #10671 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Hanging off the end of a thread
Posts: 18,223
Originally Posted by NoelEvans View Post
I wonder how many people trying to 'solve' Northern Ireland's 'problems' have ever visited Northern Ireland?
Agreed

But yes, it would be most democratic to leave those two nations sort out the problem between themselves.
Why would the English, Welsh and Scots interfere with the will of NI's people ?
What say you, Leavers^^?
The NI backstop is a totally unsolvable conundrum, there is only way to satisfy both parties, a united Ireland.


And pray, how would that work??

The conflict was primarily political and nationalistic, fuelled by historical events.[33] It also had an ethnic or sectarian dimension,[34] although it was not a religious conflict.[13]
[35] A key issue was the constitutional status of Northern Ireland. Unionists/loyalists, who were mostly Protestants, wanted Northern Ireland to remain within the United Kingdom. Irish nationalists/republicans, who were mostly Catholics, wanted Northern Ireland to leave the United Kingdom and join a united Ireland.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Troubles




..

Last edited by NutLoose; 27th Sep 2019 at 14:11.
NutLoose is online now  
Old 27th Sep 2019, 14:11
  #10672 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2019
Location: Vantaa, Finland
Posts: 0
On the whole it looks like the UK is a Crazy Eddie problem and Brexit just brought it out for all to see.

You really are living in interesting times!
Aihkio is offline  
Old 27th Sep 2019, 14:15
  #10673 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2019
Location: French Alps
Posts: 326
Originally Posted by NoelEvans View Post
Northern Ireland is as much a part of Britain as Brittany is a part of France and Limburgh is a part of The Netherlands.
Noel, Noel, there you go again.
Always confusing things, why didn't you listen at school ?

Britain is a landmass
NI is *one* of the four nations in the UK
But it is not in Britain.

This is Britain (= Great Britain) =>



While this is the UK :




No one is obliged to be witty. But ignorance is a sin, my son ;-)
Fly Aiprt is offline  
Old 27th Sep 2019, 14:27
  #10674 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2019
Location: French Alps
Posts: 326
Originally Posted by NutLoose View Post

And pray, how would that work??

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Troubles
Contrary to leavers, nobody in Europe had forgotten the Troubles and where they did come from.
Europe contributed in restoring peace in Ireland.
Anybody against the backstop is trying to reestablish a hard border in Ireland.

The British could for once respect the will of the people there.
But we understand that some people in the UK would get mad at the idea.


Fly Aiprt is offline  
Old 27th Sep 2019, 14:31
  #10675 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: The Winchester
Posts: 5,892
Originally Posted by sixchannel View Post
And thereby is the Dilemma which should have been spelled out forcefully by the Remainers instead of being all smug, sitting on their hands and expecting a sure victory.
Replace "Remainers" by Cameron in there and I'd agree...many on the Remain side were a bit more aware than that idiot.

In any event as I recall l it anything that cast doubt on Project Unicorn was labelled "Project Fear"..I'm sure if the Issue of the GFA had been raised to any significant degree the response would have been "it'll be fiiiine", no doubt followed by "Brexit doesn't mean leaving the customs union"/ " we'll getNorway ++++".......

The penny really dropped with some when Theresa announced red lines, and that was months after the referendum...

wiggy is offline  
Old 27th Sep 2019, 14:59
  #10676 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: London/Oxford/New York
Posts: 2,429
Originally Posted by [b
NoelEvans;10580805]Northern Ireland is as much a part of Britain as Brittany is a part of France and Limburgh is a part of The Netherlands.

NoelEvans,

It's not though is it? Apart from the fact that it is part of the United Kingdom of Great Britain AND Northern Ireland, and has never been a part of Britain, it is also hugely different from the two areas that you mention as they don't have different laws from the rest of their countries, have not been part of a country fighting for 800 years for its freedom and when granted that freedom had a small part of themselves hived off and placed under a foreign powers jurisdiction, then waged a 30 year campaign to sever that link.
They have also never been conquered by an adjacent power and then been subject to population manipulation by that adjacent power that attempted to dilute its nationalist and Catholic population by a Protestant plantation that led to division and strife ever since.

And yes, I have been to Northern Ireland, and despite the peace process that has achieved a superb transformation of the place, it remains a deeply divided community. Go a quarter of a mile out from the wonderfully cosmopolitan city centre in Belfast and there are still 90 peace lines and walls that are still real, not museum pieces, and are still shut at night, so I know that whilst a united Ireland would solve the brexit issue, it would risk a reverse troubles. But there is no denying that it WOULD solve the brexit dilemma, and I can see no other way of satisfying both sides, as you can't have controlled borders and no freedom of movement whilst at the same time retaining an open border.
pr00ne is offline  
Old 27th Sep 2019, 15:36
  #10677 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2019
Location: French Alps
Posts: 326
Originally Posted by pr00ne View Post
I know that whilst a united Ireland would solve the brexit issue, it would risk a reverse troubles. But there is no denying that it WOULD solve the brexit dilemma, and I can see no other way of satisfying both sides, as you can't have controlled borders and no freedom of movement whilst at the same time retaining an open border.
Thank you sir for this excellent and well considered post.
BTW you taught me a lesson and I promise I'll be kinder to our colleague NoelEvans !

I would agree except there might be a narrow path out of this mess.
Provided ROI doesn't object, a referendum in NI - maybe non binding - as to where they would prefer the hard border might help cut the Gordian knot.
NI will remain in the UK if it so wishes, but being part of an island and having its own laws and local governement might justify a particular arrangement.
Since NI as a whole wanted to stay in the EU, they might be disposed to continue being aligned with the relevant EU rules.



Fly Aiprt is offline  
Old 27th Sep 2019, 16:16
  #10678 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: UK
Posts: 123
Originally Posted by Fly Aiprt View Post
Not intending to cast reproach, but how come "how on earth will they do with NI ?" was on everyone's mind in Europe, and yet nobody in the UK gave it a thought before the referendum ?

And yes the Brexit is a step on the path towards united Ireland.
I can assure you that for some of us NI was always going to be the 'difficult' bit.
Given little coverage and largely ridiculed at the time…


Had a recent conversation about this with a very well educated and well to do friend who is a staunch Brexiteer from Derbyshire.
His solution – “Well if they want to stay part of England they’ll just have to sort themselves out!”

I said – “I take it that was a freudian slip, you mean UK?”
He replied in all seriousness, “Well, it’s the same thing really!”

We were sat in a pub in Edinburgh!!!!

Last edited by OilCan; 28th Sep 2019 at 00:43.
OilCan is online now  
Old 27th Sep 2019, 17:06
  #10679 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: England
Posts: 356
Originally Posted by Fly Aiprt View Post
Noel, Noel, there you go again.
Always confusing things, why didn't you listen at school ?

Britain is a landmass
NI is *one* of the four nations in the UK
But it is not in Britain.

This is Britain (= Great Britain) =>



While this is the UK :




No one is obliged to be witty. But ignorance is a sin, my son ;-)
Thank you Fly Aiprt. It's good to have friends in Europe to help some British people to understand the structure of their own country. I'm sure your advice has been greatly appreciated.
Sallyann1234 is offline  
Old 27th Sep 2019, 17:52
  #10680 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Bedford, UK
Age: 67
Posts: 1,265
Can anyone see what advantage JC and Labour could gain from jumping into the driver's seat with the SNP at this stage. Get all the problems and tick off English voters and sign up to another Scottish referendum ??
Mr Optimistic is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell My Personal Information -

Copyright 2018 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.