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UK Politics Hamsterwheel MkII

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UK Politics Hamsterwheel MkII

Old 26th Sep 2019, 15:48
  #10641 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Sallyann1234 View Post
I'm sure you already know t
Because it is entirely poss
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Run out of Letraset? Lol.
They need to be careful what they wish for.
And so should we.
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Old 26th Sep 2019, 15:54
  #10642 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Sallyann1234 View Post
I'm sure you already know the answer.
There's no point in calling an election to get rid of him if he's going to win it and come straight back as PM.
​​​​
So, in effect what you are actually saying is that Parliament no longer represents the people?
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Old 26th Sep 2019, 16:43
  #10643 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by NoelEvans View Post
So, in effect what you are actually saying is that Parliament no longer represents the people?
There's no point in you trying to insert something I didn't say. I simply answered your question.
I know that's not expected here, but there y'go.
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Old 26th Sep 2019, 17:24
  #10644 (permalink)  
 
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I'm not trying to insert something that you didn't say, I am just trying to work out the logical implications from what you said.

By the way, I fully agree with what you said!!
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Old 26th Sep 2019, 18:19
  #10645 (permalink)  
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According to commentators, the reason for not doing so is that it would most likely lead to a general election. The direct consequence of that would be the dissolution of Parliament, with the only actor on the stage left standing being the PM, who can then move the election date at will (subject to possible court intervention it would now seem). The idea being put forward is that in such a scenario, the current resident of #10 would choose a date post 31st Oct thus causing a no deal brexit.
Which is total bullshite.

All it needs is a one line Act of Parliament which states that, “Notwithstanding the Fixed Term Parliament Act, a general election will be held on 24th October”.

That would allow ample time for whoever won the election to write a letter requesting an extension - or to repeal the Benn Act - as they saw fit.

The simple fact is that currently they see Boris as likely to win a majority, and see the need to humble him and force him to ask for an extension as vital to reduce his appeal to leave supporters before an election, nothing else.
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Old 26th Sep 2019, 18:32
  #10646 (permalink)  
 
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So Felix flyer feels that " that their vote is not worth as much as someone else's. and suggests that there should be a General Election.
I hope that he (or she) is aware that the GE in UK is operated on the 'First past the post' system. He, or she. will, no doubt, have fully considered the implications of such arrangements viz. if. for example you live in a 'safe' Labour constituency and you vote Tory, your vote is of NO consequence, Similarly if you libe in a 'safe' Tory constituency as a Labour voter. If you vote Liberal you need about 5 times as many votes per seat as the two major Parties and if you want a Green MP, they will need a special dispensation from on high. That's all for your 'common' voter, of course. If you want to have a REAL effect on the GE outcome, get yourself appointed to the Boundaries Commission , or whatever they style themselves. They, with strokes of their decisive pens, can modify the results by up to 20 seats , one way or the other!! Just imagine that sort of voting clout!! However, this is our 'Democratic' (there's THAT word again!) Peoples' Representation system, so it must be jolly good and fair ... No? "vote not worth as much as someone else's" ???
Anyway, my liberal, - principle, rather than, necessarily political, heart soared at the realisation that our representative body was, this very afternoon, about to debate " The principle of Democracy" or some such motion. At last, I thought, they will crowd the Chamber, eager to educate we non-politicos in the finer points of fair representation and the joys of individual participation in the body politic. Of the something over 650 elected Members, I counted a TOTAL of around 32 or 33 with the Government providing a dozen or so. What price "recovering our Sovreignty" from those awful Continentals?. Do you think it has been absent for so long that they don't know what to do with it any more? There might be a joke there, somewhere. A little humour to leaven the endless stupidities of the last nine years?
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Old 26th Sep 2019, 18:41
  #10647 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by ORAC View Post
All it needs is a one line Act of Parliament which states that, “Notwithstanding the Fixed Term Parliament Act, a general election will be held on 24th October”.

That would allow ample time for whoever won the election to write a letter requesting an extension - or to repeal the Benn Act - as they saw fit.

Hope this won't happen.
Hold those elections *after* the term, nobody wants the UK in the EU again. Ever.
Leave is leave.
It's just a matter of doing it as intelligently as possible.

Those shenanigans will have been a nuisance for the 27 up to the end.


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Old 26th Sep 2019, 18:46
  #10648 (permalink)  
 
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Ok so it looks like a No Deal Brexit.
Now then - hands up those who will tell me what will happen on the N.I. / Ireland border on Nov 1st?

Last edited by sixchannel; 26th Sep 2019 at 18:59.
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Old 26th Sep 2019, 19:22
  #10649 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by ORAC View Post
Which is total bullshite.

All it needs is a one line Act of Parliament which states that, “Notwithstanding the Fixed Term Parliament Act, a general election will be held on 24th October”.

That would allow ample time for whoever won the election to write a letter requesting an extension - or to repeal the Benn Act - as they saw fit.

The simple fact is that currently they see Boris as likely to win a majority, and see the need to humble him and force him to ask for an extension as vital to reduce his appeal to leave supporters before an election, nothing else.
Are you suggesting that if the one line Act states say, '24th October', that can't subsequently be amended to, say, '1st November'? If a wily PM wanted to screw over the rebels and induce a crashout?

CG
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Old 26th Sep 2019, 19:43
  #10650 (permalink)  
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This ignores the elephant in the room, or rather in Brussels. Parliament can huff and puff all it likes but it is Brussels that is in control.

If Boris does not ask for an extension then we are out.
If Boris does not get a deal and does not ask for an extension then we are out.
If Boris asks for an extension but does not get it, then we are out.

If Parliament agrees a deal then we are out.

Only if the EU offers an extension . . .

Why can't Parliament recognize the reality?
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Old 26th Sep 2019, 19:59
  #10651 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Pontius Navigator View Post
This ignores the elephant in the room, or rather in Brussels. Parliament can huff and puff all it likes but it is Brussels that is in control.

If Boris does not ask for an extension then we are out.
If Boris does not get a deal and does not ask for an extension then we are out.
If Boris asks for an extension but does not get it, then we are out.

If Parliament agrees a deal then we are out.

Only if the EU offers an extension . . .

Why can't Parliament recognize the reality?
Personally I think Europe will give the U.K. another extension. If nothing else it keeps the popcorn manufacturers in business whilst the E.U. watch the U.K. repeatedly stab itself in the back whilst at the same time shooting itself in the foot.
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Old 26th Sep 2019, 20:04
  #10652 (permalink)  
 
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I suspect the reason Labour are side stepping a GE is because they suspect they know that their current leader may well cost them victory - and I’m a supporter of the party.
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Old 26th Sep 2019, 20:25
  #10653 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by back to Boeing View Post
Personally I think Europe will give the U.K. another extension. If nothing else it keeps the popcorn manufacturers in business whilst the E.U. watch the U.K. repeatedly stab itself in the back whilst at the same time shooting itself in the foot.
Most probable.
If the PM asks for an extension, that is.

But, elections will probably be favourable to the leavers. Unless the Queen steps into politics and calls someone else, BJ will again be PM, and he gave his word he wouldn't ask for an extension nor sign May's deal.
What will he do ?

Waiting for October with bated breath ;-)

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Old 26th Sep 2019, 20:26
  #10654 (permalink)  
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Are you suggesting that if the one line Act states say, '24th October', that can't subsequently be amended to, say, '1st November'? If a wily PM wanted to screw over the rebels and induce a crashout?
By who? The government currently has a majority of -40.

If they had a majority they could repeal the Benn Act anyway.

And if the passing of the Act, as it would, caused the dissolution, there wouldn’t be a parliament or MPs to amend it.
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Old 26th Sep 2019, 20:51
  #10655 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by G0ULI View Post
The only solution to the current parliamentary impasse is to deliver Brexit. Until Brexit happens, there are 17.4 million voters who will get increasingly annoyed and distrustful of politicians. When trust in the political process dies, the only resort is to violence. The comments made in parliament yesterday were just the faintest echo of what is being voiced on the streets, if anyone cares to listen. MPs are right to be fearful. They are just starting to have some idea of the threat of violence that millions in the UK live with every day due to deprivation and cut backs in policing and social services.




My bold. Can't agree with that. I don't hear anyone on the streets where I live voicing anything violent or indeed anything at all concerning the matter of Brexit which brings me to my second point. Violence is not the only resort when the political process dies. By and large complete disengagement is the more likely reaction I would have thought apart from maybe a few isolated pockets of dissent no matter which way Brexit finally goes.
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Old 26th Sep 2019, 20:52
  #10656 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by ORAC View Post
By who? The government currently has a majority of -40.

If they had a majority they could repeal the Benn Act anyway.

And if the passing of the Act, as it would, caused the dissolution, there wouldn’t be a parliament or MPs to amend it.
From the Institute for Government website...

Could the prime minister change his mind about the date of an early election after setting one?

In theory, the prime minister probably could change his mind about the date of the early election after persuading Parliament to call one. He could advise the Queen to proclaim an election date that is different from the one he promised to Parliament. Or, he could advise the Queen to proclaim one election date, and then later advise her to issue a second proclamation changing the date.

The only caveat is that there may be an attempt in court to challenge any such decision about the date of an election. If the court considered that the prime minister had abused his powers over an election date, or exercised those powers for improper purpose, then it might be persuaded to intervene. However, the bar for any judicial review would be high, and it is not clear whether these decisions are even justiciable.


I asked the question because I was sure this had been raised by talking heads on tv.

CG
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Old 27th Sep 2019, 05:49
  #10657 (permalink)  
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CG,

That is true under the Fixed Term Parliament Act *- it would not be true for an Act which specified the date of the election.

*Article 2(7) applies.

Fixed-term Parliaments Act 2011

“7)If a parliamentary general election is to take place as provided for by subsection (1) or (3), the polling day for the election is to be the day appointed by Her Majesty by proclamation on the recommendation of the Prime Minister”........
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Old 27th Sep 2019, 07:20
  #10658 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by ORAC View Post
CG,

That is true under the Fixed Term Parliament Act *- it would not be true for an Act which specified the date of the election.

*Article 2(7) applies.

Fixed-term Parliaments Act 2011

“7)If a parliamentary general election is to take place as provided for by subsection (1) or (3), the polling day for the election is to be the day appointed by Her Majesty by proclamation on the recommendation of the Prime Minister”........
I believe the contention is that once Parliament is dissolved, the government is able to operate without Parliamentary oversight, so in essence could amend legislation at will.
In such circumstances, with a suitably compliant cabinet the UK in essence would have an imperial PM, who could, if they so wished, change the stated date of the election.

Or at least that’s what’s being suggested in some quarters.

JAS
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Old 27th Sep 2019, 07:48
  #10659 (permalink)  
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I believe the contention is that once Parliament is dissolved, the government is able to operate without Parliamentary oversight, so in essence could amend legislation at will.
In such circumstances, with a suitably compliant cabinet the UK in essence would have an imperial PM, who could, if they so wished, change the stated date of the election.

Or at least that’s what’s being suggested in some quarters.
Post dissolution there are no MPs and legislation cannot be amended. The government, or at least Ministers of the Crown, remain in office, but their powers are severely constrained and cannot be used in such a manner to change the day of an election which had been written into law.
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Old 27th Sep 2019, 08:00
  #10660 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by [b
sixchannel;[/b]10580291]Ok so it looks like a No Deal Brexit.
Now then - hands up those who will tell me what will happen on the N.I. / Ireland border on Nov 1st?

I suspect absolutely nothing, which will expose the complete hypocrisy of the Leave campaigners as they will claim to have ended Freedom of Movement and gained back control of our borders whilst simultaneously allowing a totally open border between the EU and the UK through which ANYONE can pass at will.

The NI backstop is a totally unsolvable conundrum, there is only way to satisfy both parties, a united Ireland.
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