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UK Politics Hamsterwheel MkII

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UK Politics Hamsterwheel MkII

Old 7th Dec 2018, 08:27
  #1001 (permalink)  
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
 
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I thought the complaint of the Scots, Welsh - and especially at the moment the Northern Irish - is that it is run for and by the English.....
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Old 7th Dec 2018, 08:49
  #1002 (permalink)  
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Where’s Jeremy?

Massively important vote in the HoC, talk of TM either resigning or facing a leadership election if it fails by over 100 votes. Lots of other infighting going on in both major parties. And where is Jeremy going to be?

POLITICO:

”.....The Labour leader leaves Brexit Britain again today, this time for a gathering in sunny Portugal. He heads to the Party of European Socialists congress a week after jetting to Mexico to be a guest of honor at the inauguration of the new left-wing President Andres Manuel Lopez Obrador........”
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Old 7th Dec 2018, 09:09
  #1003 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Groundbased View Post
There is a quite interesting summary of the process from the institute of Government here https://www.instituteforgovernment.o...ganization-wto which outlines the process. Like everything challenges and complexities, but not impossible.
Thank you for posting that article which says the same thing - there is a process to be followed. It ​​involves negotiations with the EU and other WTO members, who all have their own interests to consider.

We cannot unilaterally declare ourselves to be a separate WTO member with trading arrangements in place on 30th March next year.
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Old 7th Dec 2018, 09:18
  #1004 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Nomad2 View Post
Personally, I'm chuffed to bits about it.

Soon, Great Britain will be run by the British!

If you haven't got the balls to stand up for your own Country, it's a shame ...
Which part of Britain would that be. The part which voted 98% remain and now risk losing all the advantages of EU membership, or the part gripped by a Little Englander mentality which registered a protest vote against Tory austerity (reaching back to Thatcher) and now everyone risks living with the consequences.

Do not celebrate this result.

The issue of sovereignty does not stand up to examination either. The other day a poster with a similar mindset ridiculed the principle of European Unification. Federalism.

That is not the issue. The issue is country which describes itself as a sovereign coastal state (except for the parts which share a land border with EU member states) currently paralysed by a hung parliamenent.

Idolatry of the Royal family impedes those parts of the Union which have every right to determine their own future (and actually voted in 2016 to continue EU membership) but risk being forced to live with the consequences of a poorly prepared referendum.

Here's a reality check. How can the UK pharmaceuticals industry supply drugs at an affordable price when the cost of generic and parallel imports is already on the increase. Just another indication of how people's lives are being affected by a near 50/50 referendum result.
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Old 7th Dec 2018, 09:32
  #1005 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by sfm818 View Post
the part gripped by a Little Englander mentality which registered a protest vote against Tory austerity
Good spot. Dave handed the disaffected, whose existence is undeniable, a big red button marked 'Kick the government' and they duly did. Trouble is they're yet to realise that kick has a fierce & unavoidable rebound. Still, good luck with Nomad. You'll find the debate is like lighting candles for the blind.
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Old 7th Dec 2018, 10:09
  #1006 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Sallyann1234 View Post
Thank you for posting that article which says the same thing - there is a process to be followed. It ​​involves negotiations with the EU and other WTO members, who all have their own interests to consider.

We cannot unilaterally declare ourselves to be a separate WTO member with trading arrangements in place on 30th March next year.
Who said anything about a unilateral declaration?
We are a member of the WTO in our own right and that will continue to be the case after the 30th of March next year. At that point we will have, to a greater or lesser degree, negotiated a separation of our terms and schedules, as will the EU . Those negotiations are ongoing now but may
continue after that date depending on how they go.
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Old 7th Dec 2018, 10:14
  #1007 (permalink)  
 
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I love this talk about being run by the British

At the moment we have a poor plan by a weak Prime Minister, poorly supported by by a divided cabinet.

We have an equally divided Parliament that will likely block her plan, but has nothing whatever to offer in its place.

We have a Scotland that resents being taken out of the EU and is waiting for an opportunity to hold another independence referendum.

We have Northern Ireland wondering how long it can remain separated from the South.

And this is taking back control?
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Old 7th Dec 2018, 10:22
  #1008 (permalink)  
 
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No WTO member anywhere in the world trades solely on WTO terms. They all, without exception - even Mauritania - have sectoral agreements that elevate trade above WTO baselines. The the most common misconception punted by brexiteers is that we'll drop into WTO rules for trade & everything will be ok, when they are a pale imitation of just about all trade everywhere & that is before you consider 80% of our economy is in services & not goods, the WTO provisions for which are even less developed than for goods.

In every sphere & every sense, there is no benefit to the UK in dispensing with what we have today. I find it massively ironic that Brexiteers rail against unelected bureaucrats in Brussels (also a trope) yet are willing to bet the farm on another bunch of actually unelected bureaucrats in Geneva. Pure, fact free blind faith.
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Old 7th Dec 2018, 10:34
  #1009 (permalink)  
 
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We have a Scotland that resents being taken out of the EU and is waiting for an opportunity to hold another independence referendum.
We have the SNP whinging because May's deal doesn't protect the Scottish fishing industry yet want to remain in the EU where Brussels will have total control over it.
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Old 7th Dec 2018, 10:35
  #1010 (permalink)  
 
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Well, we all have our own viewpoint on this, and like some others, I've made mine clear.

One thing that Sprogget got right, is about the referendum giving the 'disaffected' a chance to get their revenge. I think it's worth a moment to ponder on why that should be? Why, living in Utopian, modern Great Britain, do they feel the need for revenge?
My own view, and yours may differ, is that the poorest are the ones who've had to actually face, and deal with, the consequences of recent government policy.

They've been told: for example...
Mass immigration is coming. We didn't ask if you wanted it, But don't complain about it, or we'll label you racist.
The financial crisis of 2008 wasn't your fault, and you never benefitted during the good times, but now pay up.
We will decide who you can like, and who you can't. And don't complain about it.
We will decide what lies within the 'acceptable' limits of Free Speech- and don't you say anything that isn't acceptable because it's now against the law.
We have so gerrymandered the system for electing the Government that democracy barely functions and there's nothing you can do about it.

And then, as Sprogget mentioned, here's your big chance to poke a stick in our eye,

Ouch!

I suspect the reason that the less well off types voted for change, is because when you're already at the bottom, no matter what happens, you can't fall far.
Also, there's a decent chance of screwing up the well off.
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Old 7th Dec 2018, 11:13
  #1011 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Nomad2 View Post


I suspect the reason that the less well off types voted for change, is because when you're already at the bottom, no matter what happens, you can't fall far.
Also, there's a decent chance of screwing up the well off.
This may be so, yet perversely, that is the demographic which will be penalised the heaviest when they discover that not only was the big red bus a big fat lie, but the Brexit dividend of £294m/week Theresa has promised for the NHS turns out to be £15.4bn of additional borrowing as confirmed by Hammond only this week.

Those at the bottom of the pile will feel the cuts in benefits, public health, transport & all the rest of it. If you take Wales as an example, home to some of the most economically deprived areas in the union, backed Brexit by 52/48 yet are the highest recipients of EU funding in the country & are already seeing significant job losses - 570 at Schaeffer in Llanelli last month - whilst the well off you mention presumably include those who've benefited most from forty years of final salary pensions, house price growth & economic stability.

But of course it's not about money is it? It's as you say all about sovereignty & controlling our borders. Still can't work out why it is since we have no control of our borders, there's been migrant camps at Calais for a decade now. That one sure is a mystery.
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Old 7th Dec 2018, 11:25
  #1012 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Nomad2 View Post
Well, we all have our own viewpoint on this, and like some others, I've made mine clear.

One thing that Sprogget got right, is about the referendum giving the 'disaffected' a chance to get their revenge. I think it's worth a moment to ponder on why that should be? Why, living in Utopian, modern Great Britain, do they feel the need for revenge?
My own view, and yours may differ, is that the poorest are the ones who've had to actually face, and deal with, the consequences of recent government policy.

They've been told: for example...
Mass immigration is coming. We didn't ask if you wanted it, But don't complain about it, or we'll label you racist.
The financial crisis of 2008 wasn't your fault, and you never benefitted during the good times, but now pay up.
We will decide who you can like, and who you can't. And don't complain about it.
We will decide what lies within the 'acceptable' limits of Free Speech- and don't you say anything that isn't acceptable because it's now against the law.
We have so gerrymandered the system for electing the Government that democracy barely functions and there's nothing you can do about it.

And then, as Sprogget mentioned, here's your big chance to poke a stick in our eye,

Ouch!

I suspect the reason that the less well off types voted for change, is because when you're already at the bottom, no matter what happens, you can't fall far.
Also, there's a decent chance of screwing up the well off.

and how how does any of that have anything to do with the EU?
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Old 7th Dec 2018, 11:44
  #1013 (permalink)  
 
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It doesn't but he's right. It's unintended consequences at work. Cameron just thought that it was a straight forward way of solving all his problems. Give the electorate a no brain question and they will give you the correct answer. Sadly a large proportion of them, many with nothing to lose on two counts, that they were poor and not going to be around much longer, decided it would be fun to throw a spanner in the works. They grasped the opportunity with both hands and tossed a huge monkey wrench into the machinery.
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Old 7th Dec 2018, 11:49
  #1014 (permalink)  
 
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My own view, and yours may differ, is that the poorest are the ones who've had to actually face, and deal with, the consequences of recent government policy.
Exactly as B to B stated, what has that got to do with the EU?

Compare and contrast with what is going on the France ATM....increasing austerity, increasing taxes...all down to government policy... but unlike elsewhere there has been as yet no attempt to slope shoulders and blame Brussels/the EU. As a result the national Government, and the President that is facing the ire of many in the population...

One hopes that post Brexit U.K. politicians will man/woman up and taken responsibility for their decisions,,,but I have a nagging feeling years from now the EU will still be getting the blame.



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Old 7th Dec 2018, 11:52
  #1015 (permalink)  
 
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Back to B.
Nothing.
I'm sure a lot of these disenfranchised enthusiasts for Brexit don't give a toss about Europe.
They just know their lives are crap, and here's a chance to kick the table over. So they kicked it.

I feel a bit like that myself, even though I'm comparatively well off and don't live in the U.K.

Similar sentiments in the US led to Trump getting in

I genuinely think BrExit will be great for the UK, although it will take time. Am I the only one delighted to see the chatterati with their knickers in a twist? I don't think so.
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Old 7th Dec 2018, 12:02
  #1016 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Nomad2 View Post


I genuinely think BrExit will be great for the UK, although it will take time.
If you can explain to me in detail how that greatness will come about, I'm all ears. And by detail I mean more than 'take back control' or 'escape the jackboot of Eurocrats' and so on. Conspicuous by its absence is a credible plan among leavers. Since you believe in it, perhaps you'll share yours.


Originally Posted by Nomad2 View Post
Am I the only one delighted to see the chatterati with their knickers in a twist? I don't think so.
Also, pitiful.
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Old 7th Dec 2018, 12:11
  #1017 (permalink)  
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Wiggy, of course the EU will be to blame or will Margret Thatcher still be nullified 50 years on?

Personally I blame Chamberlin.
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Old 7th Dec 2018, 12:18
  #1018 (permalink)  
 
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Look Sproggers
We managed for quite a while before we joined and will do so again after we leave. We will manage as do many other countries also not in the EU. It's not mandatory to be a member.

Perhaps my view on what a Country is, is a little old fashioned, but while immigration can be a good thing, you can have too much of anything. BrExit will help the UK to control its borders.

Anyway, in my case I'm mainly in favour of seeing the apple cart turned over, which it badly needs to be.
I also see BrExit as having a positive influence on the issue of Scottish Independence, which I'm very much in favour of.
I'm no lefty, but I realise that life in the U.K. Should be a lot better.
I'm a typical Tory, but I'll never forgive them for not stopping that idiot Blair in 2003- or him for the war that followed.
In short, a pox on them all.
I never cast my vote in The BrExit referendum, but plenty did and they voted the way they voted for a variety of reasons. I'm just pointing out that it was about more than Europe.

Anyway, as a US polly once said "The people have spoken, the bastards!"
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Old 7th Dec 2018, 12:51
  #1019 (permalink)  
 
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With regard to the EU accounts, it's not as clear cut as has been made out - there is truth in that they have not IN THE PAST been passed.
https://fullfact.org/europe/did-audi...ign-eu-budget/
The EU’s Court of Auditors regularly “signs off”—in its own words—the reliability of the accounts themselves, and has given them a clean bill of health for the last decade. But it has consistently found significant errors in how the money is paid out since it began giving opinions in 1995, for the 1994 EU financial year.

The exception to this is the most recent year. The latest report has, for the first time ever, found a significant amount of payments to be largely error-free.
It found that “Payments for 2016 were legal and regular, except for cost reimbursement payments”.

Two opinions, not one.
The European Court of Auditors checks the EU’s accounts and delivers verdicts on them annually. It actually gives two different opinions on them: whether they’re accurate and reliable, and to what extent there’s evidence that money is being received or paid in error.

The auditors give a clean opinion on the accuracy and reliability of the accounts when they present a true and fair view of the EU’s finances and follow the rules of financial reporting. This has been the case since 2007. If they’re mostly fine, but have some problems, the auditors give a qualified opinion. This was the case before 2007. If they have extensive problems, they give an adverse opinion on the reliability of the accounts. This has never happened.

The same opinions are delivered on the ‘regularity’ of the accounts— mainly whether the payments are free from significant errors. Until 2016, the Court of Auditors had always given an adverse opinion on this ever since it started giving opinions in 1995. However, the most recent report gives a qualified opinion that “A significant part of the 2016 expenditure audited was not affected by a material level of error”.
The problem is that the democratic majority vote over the WHOLE of the UK was to Leave the EU. Since then, no one has urged both Leave and Remain voters to accept the decision as binding on ALL of them and then to get on with delivering the best terms possible for an amicable separation. In 1939 with the Declaration of War, even those not in favour "did their bit" and that's how I feel the negotiations by the UK should have been conducted. "We will be leaving, make it easy and we'll fund the imbalance of EU accounts for up to 5 years - make it difficult, with hard borders and we leave and pay you nothing more as of 30 March 2019.

However, all we have had for over 2 years is little progress and a lot of posturing by a load of politicians (some of whom act as if they are above the law with practices that would see them facing the courts in any other profession), squabbling away instead of all uniting in one cause. to get the best for the UK and leave the EU amicably.
Instead they have made us look a load of buffoons led by clowns who can't see a tree in the woods.

The only clear issue has been with the EU who's sole overriding policy is to ensure the UK continues to bail out the EU - that means make it as difficult as possible.
Look at the last minute "hitch" with Spain over Gibraltar and just as quickly mollified by receiving a letter from May. What was the full text of that and why didn't she simply point out the fallacy of Spain complaining about Gibraltar whilst still retaining Ceuta in Morocco?

That's why I say we should have been negotiating using continuing payment from the start - "Want our money? Then let us leave without a fuss"
The EU don't want anyone to leave as that would unbalance their accounts, calling for more payments from those left, who then in turn would baulk at increased payments where they pay in more than they extract. Greece, Italy or any others leaving would simply increase the burden on those left.

... but it's too late now and we've given too much ground for any credibility to "stand up to the EU" so simply to end the mess, let's withdraw Article 50, stay in the EU and then suck out as much for the UK as possible, to redress the overpayments we currently make. Super motorways from all the ports to reach every part of the UK funded by the EU; HS2 and other high speed rail links from UK ports to major cities, expand sea and airport facilities like Heathrow and Gatwick, all using EU funds. Poland and Spain are past masters at this, let's start doing so ourselves.
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Old 7th Dec 2018, 13:32
  #1020 (permalink)  
 
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Compare and contrast with what is going on the France ATM....increasing austerity, increasing taxes...all down to government policy... but unlike elsewhere there has been as yet no attempt to slope shoulders and blame Brussels/the EU. As a result the national Government, and the President that is facing the ire of many in the population...
That may be true. For now. I can see it arising in France as the whole issue revolves around France's efforts to reduce vehicle pollution in accord with EU specified targets for all EU countries. Now that Macron has dropped the tax he wanted to use as a tool to reduce vehicle related pollution I wonder how long it will be before the French government begin claiming "It wasn't our fault, we were obeying Brussels directives"?
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