Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > PPRuNe Social > Jet Blast
Reload this Page >

UK Politics Hamsterwheel MkII

Jet Blast Topics that don't fit the other forums. Rules of Engagement apply.

UK Politics Hamsterwheel MkII

Old 6th Dec 2018, 15:05
  #981 (permalink)  
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Lincolnshire
Age: 76
Posts: 16,658
Sprogget,
uninformed leavers who en masse have clubbed together to shaft this country for a generation based on false prospectuses they couldn't be bothered to challenge even to the extent
That is an emotive and unsupportable statement. En masse assumes all. Similarly informed remainers also voted an masse? Based on a false prospectus? I think not.

True some naive might have believed the 350m promise but only a moment's thought and you would realise the poor farmers needed to get their subsidies from somewhere. As for challenge, why challenge what is plainly political puff?
Pontius Navigator is offline  
Old 6th Dec 2018, 15:06
  #982 (permalink)  
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Lincolnshire
Age: 76
Posts: 16,658
Originally Posted by Sallyann1234 View Post
OK. I was driving so had no opportunity to listen again.

Less than four months to go before the greatest event to occur to our country since WW2 and no one, not even the government, knows what's going to happen. Crazy.
Why is leaving a greater event than joining?
Pontius Navigator is offline  
Old 6th Dec 2018, 15:11
  #983 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: England
Posts: 342
Originally Posted by Pontius Navigator View Post
Why is leaving a greater event than joining?
Because we are leaving a far larger trading unit and internationally significant entity than the one we joined.
Sallyann1234 is offline  
Old 6th Dec 2018, 17:12
  #984 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Denver
Posts: 1,011
As a Yank, I have no desire to take sides in the BrExit scenarios. I might even agree that most Leave voters indeed thought they were voting for a "hard" BrExit. Done and dusted. But I would point out a couple of logical flaws in the following:

Originally Posted by Nomad2 View Post
If you wish to join a club, it's reasonable to negotiate the conditions under which you join, and to pay a joining fee.

What's not reasonable, is negotiating with the club on your conditions- and paying a fee- when you leave!



I guess that would depend on what you (or the UK) signed up for on joining the club. If you agreed to obey all the club rules, present and future - and those rules state that you will pay Club fees for 3 years after leaving - then that is what you (or the UK) signed you name to. Either you do what you contracted to do, or your end up in negotiations to do something else.

Originally Posted by Nomad2 View Post
Heard an interesting comment re the much discussed border issue between NI and Eire. The question was simply asked, it's a border between Eire and Northern Ireland only.
Northern Ireland doesn't wish a hard border.
Eire doesn't wish a hard border.
Soif neither party wants one, who could possibly construct and administer such a border apart from NI and Eire?
There is a border between Poland and Belarus. It also happens to be a border between the EU and Belarus. I imagine the EU has quite some say in how that border is operated, regarding trade, immigration, etc., and that it is not strictly a question for Poland and Belarus alone.

If the UK leaves the EU, then the border between Eire and Northern Ireland also becomes a border between the EU and Northern Ireland/the UK. And I expect the EU would expect the same controls there that it has over any other part of its border. Unless negotiations lead to special status.
pattern_is_full is offline  
Old 6th Dec 2018, 18:04
  #985 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2018
Location: Hyderabad
Posts: 0
Pattern.
Couple of good points there.

On point 1. Sure. If we owe the EU, we must pay. No doubt there. But as a net contributor to the EU for all these years? Still, we have to pay, if we really owe them.
But there should be NO leaving fee.
On point two, Well it's really a difficult one, but unusually, neither of the contiguous states wishes a hard border..

Can you see Eire enforcing it? Or NI?

I see my other points have been ignored, so crack on you anti-BrExit folks, by all means.

We do not need the consent of a minority.
Nomad2 is offline  
Old 6th Dec 2018, 19:12
  #986 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Cambridge, England, EU
Posts: 3,437
Wot we need is good old British democracy - the People's Vote should be constituency by constituency on a first past the post basis.

Gertrude the Wombat is offline  
Old 6th Dec 2018, 19:41
  #987 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Looking for the signals square at LHR
Posts: 198
Originally Posted by Nomad2 View Post
Pattern.
We do not need the consent of a minority.
Well, the one identifying feature characterising the thoroughly inept prosecution of this whole wretched process is the destruction of our long-held concepts of an established, representative democracy. In this we blindly have followed France, The Netherlands, Ireland, all of whom have allowed themselves to be bullied by their respective establishments and the EU into rejecting a legitimate referendum-derived decision and again voting until the required conclusion arrives. From this one has to suppose that we do "need the consent of a minority". It is a very sad, shameful diminution and humiliation of a once proud country.

Those of the quisling Remain persuasion thinking themselves morally and intellectually superior to those holding an opposing view would do well to read The Strange Death of Europe by Douglas Murray. Indeed, it should be required reading of everyone.
Gipsy Queen is offline  
Old 6th Dec 2018, 19:43
  #988 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Chez Sprog
Posts: 493
Originally Posted by Nomad2 View Post
On point two, Well it's really a difficult one, but unusually, neither of the contiguous states wishes a hard border..

Can you see Eire enforcing it? Or NI?
Most of us gave writing to Santa years ago...

You can wish for no border until the cows come home, it makes no difference to anyone. If the UK leaves without a deal, the NI border becomes the end of EU territory, end of discussion. Eire may not wish to erect a border, the UK may concur nonetheless, the EU will not allow unfettered access in & out of the single market & customs union without regulatory, customs & phytosanitary checks. If either nation demurs, there will be a court case & Eire will lose & will erect a border or face severe sanctions from the EU which politically they won't risk.


The border is a reality & it is self inflicted by May's own red lines. It has nothing to do with being held hostage by a few terrorists, as I read above here, that is yet another flowering load of old rubbish put about by the unicorn brigade. Call me emotive if you like, I can only eat what's in front of me & one after another queues up to demonstrate they'd be out of their depth in a puddle when it comes to grasping the nettle of EU matters.
Sprogget is offline  
Old 6th Dec 2018, 19:47
  #989 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Cambridge, England, EU
Posts: 3,437
Originally Posted by Gipsy Queen View Post
Gertrude - surely you recognise this data as wholly specious!
If you don't like the way it's presented that means you don't like the way general elections are run either. Welcome to the PR club.
Gertrude the Wombat is offline  
Old 6th Dec 2018, 19:48
  #990 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Chez Sprog
Posts: 493
Originally Posted by Gipsy Queen View Post
Well, the one identifying feature characterising the thoroughly inept prosecution of this whole wretched process is the destruction of our long-held concepts of an established, representative democracy. In this we blindly have followed France, The Netherlands, Ireland, all of whom have allowed themselves to be bullied by their respective establishments and the EU into rejecting a legitimate referendum-derived decision and again voting until the required conclusion arrives. From this one has to suppose that we do "need the consent of a minority". It is a very sad, shameful diminution and humiliation of a once proud country.

Those of the quisling Remain persuasion thinking themselves morally and intellectually superior to those holding an opposing view would do well to read The Strange Death of Europe by Douglas Murray. Indeed, it should be required reading of everyone.
The key point you conveniently overlook in this wordy diatribe is the government held an advisory referendum which they chose to treat as binding when they were under no obligation to do so. I'm sad you can't grasp the fundamental tenet that Parliament is sovereign in a representative democracy but here we are. Again. Still on the bright side, most leavers I talk to banged on about the sovereignty of Parliament during the referendum. Now it's exercising that sovereignty in the light of clear & unambiguous information, you don't seem so keen suddenly. Funny old world.
Sprogget is offline  
Old 6th Dec 2018, 21:23
  #991 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: UK
Posts: 1,695
If the UK leaves the EU, then the border between Eire and Northern Ireland also becomes a border between the EU and Northern Ireland/the UK. And I expect the EU would expect the same controls there that it has over any other part of its border. Unless negotiations lead to special status.
Pattern is Full

Congratulations in understanding exactly what the issue really is; it's amazing how so many Brits fail to grasp the concept that Eire becomes the external border of the EU.

And I thought most Americans were worldly naive!!
ATNotts is online now  
Old 6th Dec 2018, 22:27
  #992 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Looking for the signals square at LHR
Posts: 198
Originally Posted by Sprogget View Post
The key point you conveniently overlook in this wordy diatribe is the government held an advisory referendum which they chose to treat as binding when they were under no obligation to do so. I'm sad you can't grasp the fundamental tenet that Parliament is sovereign in a representative democracy but here we are. Again. Still on the bright side, most leavers I talk to banged on about the sovereignty of Parliament during the referendum. Now it's exercising that sovereignty in the light of clear & unambiguous information, you don't seem so keen suddenly. Funny old world.
I have not sought to deny that Parliament is sovereign in a representative democracy - it must be sovereign by definition. My view is that the government has failed to implement much in the way of a satisfactory response to the instruction of the referendum. The majority verdict of that vote was for the country to leave the EU. There was no talk of the current or any other deal - the directive was to leave. In the meantime, the position of the government has changed from that proposed at Lancaster House to one almost diametrically opposite and each change of position has taken it further from the original mandate. It is because of this government's hopelessly inept handling of Brexit that Parliament has seen fit to wrest some control of the matter from the Cabinet and assume a direct responsibility. I cannot remember another time when Parliament also became the Executive but we live in strange times.

My concern is that the national will, having effectively been thwarted by one body, now is being disregarded by another. The absolute refusal to consider living under WTO regulations which serve the bulk of the trading world well enough and of which we are an existing member, is just one element in a mix clearly designed to impede our break from Europe. To quote Nick Timothy; "Brussels has screwed Britain, Remainers have screwed the Prime Minister and the Prime Minister has screwed the Leavers. The result is that the establishment has screwed the public." Is this the new democracy?

Sad, innit.
Gipsy Queen is offline  
Old 6th Dec 2018, 22:42
  #993 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: England
Posts: 342
Originally Posted by Gipsy Queen View Post
My concern is that the national will, having effectively been thwarted by one body, now is being disregarded by another. The absolute refusal to consider living under WTO regulations which serve the bulk of the trading world well enough and of which we are an existing member, is just one element in a mix clearly designed to impede our break from Europe.

Sad, innit.
Very sad, particularly as the UK is NOT a member of the WTO in our own right. We are a member of the EU, and part of the EU's WTO membership. When we leave the EU we do not automatically become a WTO member as some Brexiteers would like to believe. Our membership has to be split from the EU's joint membership, and this is another issue that has to be negotiated between us.

The UK is already a WTO member, but its membership terms are bundled with the EU’s. Re-establishing the UK’s WTO status in its own right means both the UK and the EU would negotiate simultaneously with the rest of the WTO’s members to extract their separate membership terms. Agreement on the UK’s terms is unlikely before those of the EU.

If we crash out next March without any agreement, we will not be an WTO member.

https://www.ictsd.org/opinion/nothin...us-post-brexit
Sallyann1234 is offline  
Old 6th Dec 2018, 22:49
  #994 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Chez Sprog
Posts: 493
Nick Timothy?!! Anyone's fault but mine, guv. You cannot seriously place any store in him? The most busted flush on the right & it's a crowded field.

The ineptness of the government isn't in delivering Brexit. It's undeliverable. You only need look at the NI border to understand this. And that feeds into the real incompetence of the government. They lied & lied and continue to lie. At any point, May could have levelled with people. Canada +++++++++ or whatever it is this week is a fantasy, it can't work. But she never did that, she strung us along the whole time, promising free trade but no more foreigners making the place look untidy or we'll just walk away! Until the inevitable happened - concede on the border or wreck the economy. Tough choice, fulfil a right wing wet dream & wreck the place in the process or face humiliation with unavoidable compromises but keep the lights on.

As for WTO, not one nation trades exclusively under that system. The contention is flat out wrong.

The UK for example trades with 24 of 159 countries under WTO rules & even then most have supplementary arrangements.and even then again, it's a tiny proportion of our trade and that's because of tariffs. Look them up & stockpile steak.. Practically the whole of UK plc says WTO would be a disaster. John Redwood, Jacob Rich-Mogg & Ian drunken Smith say it'll be fine. As ever, you are entitled to alternative opinions, but not alternative facts.WTO my eye.
Sprogget is offline  
Old 6th Dec 2018, 23:11
  #995 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Hanging off the end of a thread
Posts: 16,677
Totally against another referendum as we have already had that discussion and that outcome is where we are today, if you did would you then hold a third and forth until you got a remain vote? Where is the democracy in that.

One point though if you held a third referendum with the question would you accept Mays deal, no deal or stay in, if the result was

26% no deal 26% May's deal and 48% stay in.

how would you call that as those wishing to leave are still in the majority.
NutLoose is online now  
Old 7th Dec 2018, 00:06
  #996 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2018
Location: London/Fort Worth
Posts: 0
Originally Posted by Sallyann1234 View Post

If we crash out next March without any agreement, we will not be an WTO member.
I think you will find that is incorrect - you can be a member and continue to trade with other countries under WTO rules without an agreed set of schedules, in fact the EU did that for almost 10 years.
BAengineer is offline  
Old 7th Dec 2018, 04:35
  #997 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2018
Location: Hyderabad
Posts: 0
It's really funny listening to the remainders squawking about how terrible it all is.
Grow a pair FFS!
The British are not Chicken Little, and the sky's not going to fall on our head.

Had the referendum gone the other way, the remainders would be telling us to shut up and accept that the people have spoken, and we are staying.

Indeed, the people have spoken, and we are going.

Personally, I'm chuffed to bits about it.

Soon, Great Britain will be run by the British!

If you haven't got the balls to stand up for your own Country, it's a shame- and it's nothing to boast about.

Do us all a favour and pipe down a bit, eh?
Nomad2 is offline  
Old 7th Dec 2018, 04:48
  #998 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: The Luberon
Age: 68
Posts: 905
The BBC sage of politics spoke...



Colemanballs has been replaced by Linekerballs.
sitigeltfel is offline  
Old 7th Dec 2018, 05:27
  #999 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: In the circuit
Posts: 177
Originally Posted by Sallyann1234 View Post
Very sad, particularly as the UK is NOT a member of the WTO in our own right. We are a member of the EU, and part of the EU's WTO membership. When we leave the EU we do not automatically become a WTO member as some Brexiteers would like to believe. Our membership has to be split from the EU's joint membership, and this is another issue that has to be negotiated between us.

The UK is already a WTO member, but its membership terms are bundled with the EU’s. Re-establishing the UK’s WTO status in its own right means both the UK and the EU would negotiate simultaneously with the rest of the WTO’s members to extract their separate membership terms. Agreement on the UK’s terms is unlikely before those of the EU.

If we crash out next March without any agreement, we will not be an WTO member.

https://www.ictsd.org/opinion/nothin...us-post-brexit
Subtle perhaps, but I believe the UK is a member of the WTO in its own right, and the WTO themselves have said that our membership will continue post brexit (I think your bolded text confirms that). I agree our trade terms and schedules would need to be extracted from those conferred by EU membership and agreed. This activity has already been ongoing for some period of time, the UK formally began the process of separating our WTO terms from the EU's back in July this year.

There is a quite interesting summary of the process from the institute of Government here https://www.instituteforgovernment.o...ganization-wto which outlines the process. Like everything challenges and complexities, but not impossible.
Groundbased is offline  
Old 7th Dec 2018, 06:43
  #1000 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: The Winchester
Posts: 5,574
Originally Posted by Nomad2 View Post
Soon, Great Britain will be run by the British!
It is now...as current events at Westminster demonstrate.

wiggy is online now  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell My Personal Information

Copyright 2018 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.