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UK Politics Hamsterwheel MkII

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UK Politics Hamsterwheel MkII

Old 6th Dec 2018, 08:15
  #961 (permalink)  
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Confusion and mayhem seems the least of it....

https://www.politico.eu/newsletter/l...-the-minister/
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Old 6th Dec 2018, 08:29
  #962 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Nomad2 View Post
I know it sounds a bit hard-line, but for me it's got to be a no-deal BrExit.
That's what many (or most) of us wanted when we voted to leave.
We don't want to leave under their rules, we want to leave without the EU dictating the conditions!
We? India want to leave the EU?

Last edited by Sprogget; 6th Dec 2018 at 08:39. Reason: Geographical incompetence
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Old 6th Dec 2018, 08:30
  #963 (permalink)  
 
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“No deal” is as it stands today is a “no deal” with pretty much anybody anywhere in the world on most anything on 30th March. It will mean an absolute s storm for an indeterminate period for many people trying to run a business that has any interaction with anybody outside the U.K.

Of course if you have no interest in doing anything “cross border” in the days following Brexit, or believe that hammering out trade deals is dead easy, or have already made arrangements such as already “offshoring” parts of your business affairs and financial assets to parts of the EU so that they continue to enjoy the advantages of the EU post Brexit I guess you can afford to be pretty relaxed about the whole thing.
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Old 6th Dec 2018, 09:25
  #964 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by wiggy View Post
“No deal” is as it stands today is a “no deal” with pretty much anybody anywhere in the world on most anything on 30th March. It will mean an absolute s storm for an indeterminate period for many people trying to run a business that has any interaction with anybody outside the U.K.

Of course if you have no interest in doing anything “cross border” in the days following Brexit, or believe that hammering out trade deals is dead easy, or have already made arrangements such as already “offshoring” parts of your business affairs and financial assets to parts of the EU so that they continue to enjoy the advantages of the EU post Brexit I guess you can afford to be pretty relaxed about the whole thing.
Therein lies the problem, many of the most ardent Brexiteers either have no investment whatsoever in anything outside the UK (no passport, no foreign travel, no work that involved international interaction, no work at all - either pensioners, allegedly long term sick, or bone idle. The last 3 categories will be baled out by the state whatever.

Watching part of Theresa May's interview on BBC R4 Today programme on the News Channel this morning, I detect a beginnings of a sleight of hand over the back stop, where it becomes fudged into the transition (implementation) period, the extension of which could involve parliament in the decision. Can't really see how that would sit with the EU, nor with Brexiteers, who know full well that until the next general election there is an inbuilt majority in the Commons for remain - the government is clearly clutching at straws. i also noted that in the interview she didn't say an outright "no" to a referendum, she said it wasn't desirable. She didn't even (in the excerpt I saw), use that grating phrase "the will of the people".

Shifting sands?
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Old 6th Dec 2018, 09:36
  #965 (permalink)  
 
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Interestingly May confirmed on R4 this morning what Hague had written in the Telegraph the other day, which is that if the backstop were activated we would still pay no contributions and have no freedom of movement but would have seamless trade. I can see why the EU wouldn't want that situation to persist for too long.

If that is the case it seems to me that this is the thing they should be majoring on when trying to get MPs to support this deal.
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Old 6th Dec 2018, 10:17
  #966 (permalink)  
 
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If you wish to join a club, it's reasonable to negotiate the conditions under which you join, and to pay a joining fee.

What's not reasonable, is negotiating with the club on your conditions- and paying a fee- when you leave!

BrExit means what it says. LEAVE!

No strings, no talks, no fee. Just bye!

The decision to leave is a strategic one. Tactical issues must not be allowed to drive the strategy!

Heard an interesting comment re the much discussed border issue between NI and Eire. The question was simply asked, it's a border between Eire and Northern Ireland only.
Northern Ireland doesn't wish a hard border.
Eire doesn't wish a hard border.
Soif neither party wants one, who could possibly construct and administer such a border apart from NI and Eire? Germany???

I'm outside the UK these days, not in Hyderabad unfortunately, but finding it delicious watching the chattering classes wriggling, firmly impaled on a hook that they baited for themselves.

Squirm on.

There will be no deal- I hope. No second vote, and hopefully no border around NI.

The hard thing in democracy is sucking it up if you find yourself on the losing side.

There's plenty of people in the U.K. who've been on the losing side their entire lives, and the UK Government maybe shouldn't have asked them for their opinion, but ask they did.

Now, shut up and do as you were told.
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Old 6th Dec 2018, 10:23
  #967 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Nomad2 View Post
If you wish to join a club, it's reasonable to negotiate the conditions under which you join, and to pay a joining fee.

What's not reasonable, is negotiating with the club on your conditions- and paying a fee- when you leave!

BrExit means what it says. LEAVE!

No strings, no talks, no fee. Just bye!

The decision to leave is a strategic one. Tactical issues must not be allowed to drive the strategy!

Heard an interesting comment re the much discussed border issue between NI and Eire. The question was simply asked, it's a border between Eire and Northern Ireland only.
Northern Ireland doesn't wish a hard border.
Eire doesn't wish a hard border.
Soif neither party wants one, who could possibly construct and administer such a border apart from NI and Eire? Germany???

I'm outside the UK these days, not in Hyderabad unfortunately, but finding it delicious watching the chattering classes wriggling, firmly impaled on a hook that they baited for themselves.

Squirm on.

There will be no deal- I hope. No second vote, and hopefully no border around NI.

The hard thing in democracy is sucking it up if you find yourself on the losing side.

There's plenty of people in the U.K. who've been on the losing side their entire lives, and the UK Government maybe shouldn't have asked them for their opinion, but ask they did.

Now, shut up and do as you were told.
It's comforting that you bookend your breathtaking ignorance of Brexit with a general bunch of insults. I take heart that your side of the debate is shored up by people like you who haven't the slightest idea what they're talking about beyond the odd meaningless phrase or two picked up in the Times of India or somewhere.
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Old 6th Dec 2018, 11:30
  #968 (permalink)  
 
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Haven't been here for a while. Since I last visited the Brexit thread (which is what this thread has been hijacked to become) much has happened. Interesting to know that days after I left 'that' thread describing it as becoming a spiteful cesspit of abuse the mods decided to close it pretty much citing that as the reason. I'm sure the two are not related

I voted for Brexit, and I still support Brexit. In light of any practical alternative I favour a no-deal Brexit but I still accept that this would not be the ideal outcome for the entire UK. Some two years ago or so I did not support a second referendum the reason being well stated at the time - if we were to signal to the EU that any final deal would be put to a public vote then the EU would simply offer us a poor deal and the UK would likely vote to remain (but on what terms we knew not).

Instead it was made very clear to the EU that there would be no second vote and 'leave meant leave'. That being the case I think the EU got the message and they have been negotiating with that in mind - we are leaving, no doubt about it. As such I think the current situation we have arrived at is the 'best' deal that the UK can expect and the EU have been negotiating in an honest realistic fashion.

Now that we know what 'leave means leave' in the sense that it has been spelt out I now have no objection to a second vote. If we had gone into the negotiations with a second public vote inevitably in the offing we wouldn't be where we are now.

Looking into the blue yonder, it surprise me that Brexit has come down to placating a couple of hundred murderous thugs in Ireland on both sides of the border who simply want to kill each other. We are, somewhat, hostage to them.

For the avoidance of doubt, I reluctantly support Mrs May's deal.
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Old 6th Dec 2018, 11:37
  #969 (permalink)  
 
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The people who have been having the hissy fit and throwing insults are usually remainers who think that those who voted to leave are elderly, uneducated and should be culled. Do remainers really like the direction in which the eu is going, more powers removed from nation states, more immigration, more central control by an organisation who top posts are appointed rather than elected, who accounts are unaudited for many years.
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Old 6th Dec 2018, 11:48
  #970 (permalink)  
 
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Dunkirk spirit-that was massive defeat and no rescue from the yanks and the russians this time. And the french helped us leave too. US has already forced BT not to buy Chinese telecom equipment

There does seem to be an air of panic on the liar leave side these days as the reality begins to sink in that its incredibly complex and extremely damaging.

Why on earth N Ireland has any say in the matter amazes me-they get ignored for years an years and are basically part of Ireland anyway . They voted mostly to remain and yet the whole thing appears to pivot around a tiny few whom it seems we are prepared to sacrifice the City of London and our remaining manufacturing industry for.

We ahve demonstrated thata llowing the UK Parliament and Government to 'take back control' would be a disaster because they are not up to it.

Rees Moggs gang photo I think cost a lot of support -a group of old men more right and more white than the KKK made a lot of people realise they are not remotely representative of UK 2018.

Now its just about saving face before conceding a second referendum-on which the conservative former chief whip wisely said-if you decide to do something in a couple of years time and when the time comes you see all sorts of problems t you dont just plough ahead and ignore new information.
The Daily Mails position on the matter has radiclaly changed so Tory MPs no longer need to fear them
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Old 6th Dec 2018, 11:59
  #971 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by paulc View Post
The people who have been having the hissy fit and throwing insults are usually remainers who think that those who voted to leave are elderly, uneducated and should be culled. Do remainers really like the direction in which the eu is going, more powers removed from nation states, more immigration, more central control by an organisation who top posts are appointed rather than elected, who accounts are unaudited for many years.
I want to be gentle with you Paul. The content & tone of your post suggests you are fully committed to a bit of Euro hate. I don't think you're right to hold such a view at least not on the evidence you've cited. However, I do think & I'm happy as ever to be corrected, that you've probably had your mind poisoned by forty years of anti EU right wing press drip feeding a diet of lies, half truths & pettyfogging miasma into your brain. There's no shame in being conned, especially when it's a bunch of well spoken, plausible ex. public schoolboys doing it. However, here's the evidence to the contrary:

On the subject of the accounts: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politi...endum-36276175 Note this is a year out of date - they were signed off in 2017 as well.

On the unelected bureaucrats thing too: http://blogs.lse.ac.uk/europpblog/20...d-bureaucrats/

As ever, a headline in 40pt bold in the Mail or wherever is much easier to take in than some reasoned, dry examination of the facts but such is the world we live in. It's just a pity these arguments were hijacked for decades prior to the referendum.
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Old 6th Dec 2018, 12:01
  #972 (permalink)  
 
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Look Sprogget.
i don't work in India any more, so you'll probably be more up to date on the ToI than me.
I'm fed up with those who seem to want to rewrite recent history.
It's over and you had your say. The remainers LOST.
Instead of carping about the ''''unfortunate" outcome, we should be looking forward to some positive changes.

Also, if you're going to ignore, undermine and generally ridicule the ordinary working class people, don't be surprised if they bite you in the ass when they get a chance.
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Old 6th Dec 2018, 12:12
  #973 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Groundbased View Post
Interestingly May confirmed on R4 this morning what Hague had written in the Telegraph the other day, which is that if the backstop were activated we would still pay no contributions and have no freedom of movement but would have seamless trade. I can see why the EU wouldn't want that situation to persist for too long.
Are you sure? In the interview that I just heard, May said "there would be some money to be paid."
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Old 6th Dec 2018, 12:14
  #974 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Nomad2 View Post
Look Sprogget.
i don't work in India any more, so you'll probably be more up to date on the ToI than me.
I'm fed up with those who seem to want to rewrite recent history.
It's over and you had your say. The remainers LOST.
Instead of carping about the ''''unfortunate" outcome, we should be looking forward to some positive changes.

Also, if you're going to ignore, undermine and generally ridicule the ordinary working class people, don't be surprised if they bite you in the ass when they get a chance.
As soon as you can marshal a coherent argument that has any bearing on the real world rather than some cake & unicorns 'You lost, get over it' nonsense, then I'll happily don my extra thick pants. Until that point though, you'd be better served reading up a little on this whole thing than repeatedly making a bit of a show of yourself in public.
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Old 6th Dec 2018, 12:15
  #975 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Sallyann1234 View Post
Are you sure? In the interview that I just heard, May said "there would be some money to be paid."
I had to listen to that bit twice. What I think she was saying was that if the transition was extended instead of going into the backstop the EU would want more money, but if you went straight into the backstop no money would be payable.
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Old 6th Dec 2018, 12:25
  #976 (permalink)  
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I see, as I said a couple of days ago, that the EU now says the 29th March can be kicked down the road to allow more time. Why are the EU now being so accommodating? What's in it for them?

I know we have talked much about who needs who more, now it looks as if the message has got through.
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Old 6th Dec 2018, 12:51
  #977 (permalink)  
 
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Sprogett thank you for your condescending post but as others said remain lost the govt approved referendum and in a democracy you win some and loose some.
you cite that eu accounts were signed off for 2 years, how many of the previous years were audited and signed off?
I am getting sick and tired of remainers bellitling those who have a different opinion to theirs. Their opinion is as valid as anyones and to say otherwise is an insult. I would be more concerned at the 17.4 million people who voted leave and are becoming increasingly disillusioned at the political system. If that number feel there is no value to their vote then democracy is well and truly dead.
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Old 6th Dec 2018, 13:05
  #978 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by paulc View Post
you cite that eu accounts were signed off for 2 years, how many of the previous years were audited and signed off?
Paul, you accuse me of condescension, in response, presumably to me levelling an accusation that you have been misinformed for years. If I then offer you a route to correct that that involves one single click of your mouse & you choose not to do that, is that condescension not justified?

Originally Posted by BBC article said

Reality Check verdict: The Court of Auditors has signed the EU accounts every year since 2007, while pointing out that EU countries, once they receive the EU funds, misuse about 4.4% of the total budget.

You are of course free to be sick of this or that. Personally I'm sick to the back teeth of uninformed leavers who en masse have clubbed together to shaft this country for a generation based on false prospectuses they couldn't be bothered to challenge even to the extent of browsing a few widely available web pages explicitly provided to them for their own benefit.
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Old 6th Dec 2018, 13:08
  #979 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Pontius Navigator View Post
I see, as I said a couple of days ago, that the EU now says the 29th March can be kicked down the road to allow more time. Why are the EU now being so accommodating? What's in it for them?

I know we have talked much about who needs who more, now it looks as if the message has got through.
The can can only be kicked down the road in the event of a significant development such as a general election or referendum, they aren't going to allow us to drag things out indefinitely, and they certainly aren't going to allow a root and branch renegotiation of the agreement made last month. Corbyn and other deluded MPs had better get used to that Some tweaking around the edges, possibly the addition of an addendum to help accommodate rebellious MPs I suppose may be an option.

The EU want a no deal crash out as little as most sensible people in the UK want it, but I don't think they are desperate. Take a look at the ARD (Tagesschau) website just now, if you want to see how bothered the Germans are about Brexit. And they are generally much better at covering foreign, especially European news than their British counterparts.
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Old 6th Dec 2018, 13:10
  #980 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Groundbased View Post
I had to listen to that bit twice. What I think she was saying was that if the transition was extended instead of going into the backstop the EU would want more money, but if you went straight into the backstop no money would be payable.
OK. I was driving so had no opportunity to listen again.

Less than four months to go before the greatest event to occur to our country since WW2 and no one, not even the government, knows what's going to happen. Crazy.
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