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UK Politics Hamsterwheel MkII

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UK Politics Hamsterwheel MkII

Old 23rd Jul 2019, 18:20
  #9121 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: West Wiltshire, UK
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Genuine question:

Assuming that Boris Johnson manages to deliver Brexit, what will the LibDem policy be come the next General Election?

My reason for asking is that I tend to agree with most LibDem policies, with the notable exception of their stance on Brexit. I can't realistically see a policy of aiming to get the UK back in to the EU being a vote winner, as apart from anything else, I have a very strong suspicion that the EU would put some pretty hefty obstacles in the path of any attempt to allow the UK to rejoin the EU.

Presumably the leadership of the LibDems has given this some thought, as with Labour seemingly imploding, and the likelihood that, under Boris Johnson, the Conservatives will just lose credibility, there has to be an opportunity for a well-structured centrist party to come to prominence, and perhaps even break the two party system we've had to endure for decades.
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Old 23rd Jul 2019, 18:31
  #9122 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by VP959 View Post
Genuine question:

Assuming that Boris Johnson manages to deliver Brexit, what will the LibDem policy be come the next General Election?

My reason for asking is that I tend to agree with most LibDem policies, with the notable exception of their stance on Brexit. I can't realistically see a policy of aiming to get the UK back in to the EU being a vote winner, as apart from anything else, I have a very strong suspicion that the EU would put some pretty hefty obstacles in the path of any attempt to allow the UK to rejoin the EU.
I thought the Lib Dems currently stated policy (re-iterated by their new leader in her speech last night) was to "Stop Brexit". That can simply be done by revoking Article 50....

I may well have missed it but I have not seen any evidence of what the Lib Dems policy would be if they went into a GE in the future if the UK has already exited the EU..I would agree doing that would be highly problematic.
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Old 23rd Jul 2019, 18:43
  #9123 (permalink)  
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
 
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Revoking A50 involves the Royal Prerogative, as such any such Act requires Royal Consent, which can be withheld by the executive if parliament tries to force one through as a private member bill.

Which brings us us back to the only way to now stop Brexit is now not only defeating the government in a vote of no confidence, but installing a new government with a leader who can be appointed as PM by the Queen and win another vote before the 14 day window triggers an election.

Dominic Grieve is well aware of how difficult it will now be.

https://ukconstitutionallaw.org/2019...xtension-bill/

Fixed-term Parliaments Act 2011
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Old 23rd Jul 2019, 20:15
  #9124 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by wiggy View Post
I thought the Lib Dems currently stated policy was to "Stop Brexit". That can simply be done by revoking Article 50....
The policy is to remain, but the preferred mechanism is another referendum (I voted against that but my side lost). But any such policy can only be delivered by an overall majority government - in any other scenario we'd have to take what we could get.
Originally Posted by wiggy View Post
I may well have missed it but I have not seen any evidence of what the Lib Dems policy would be if they went into a GE in the future if the UK has already exited the EU..I would agree doing that would be highly problematic.
It'll be to rejoin, sooner or later. Yes that means the Euro, and Schegen, and no opt-outs, and no rebates, but we have the #brexshitters to thank for that - we'd rather just stay as we are. But any such policy can only be delivered by an overall majority government - in any other scenario we'd have to take what we could get.

It is inconceivable that there won't be a Europe debate at #ldconf in September. Whether the PTB will let us have another go at changing the policy to "just revoke A50 FFS" remains to be seen. But really, this idea of a third referendum is sooooo last year, it's as dead as May's deal surely to goodness.
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Old 24th Jul 2019, 05:48
  #9125 (permalink)  
 
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GTW

Thanks for the amplification/explanation.
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Old 24th Jul 2019, 11:01
  #9126 (permalink)  
 
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Ohhh I do like a good resignation..

An Independent MP’s aide staged a dramatic resignation - using his boss’s own Twitter account. Gareth Arnold, who worked for Sheffield Hallam Independent MP Jared O’Mara, branded his boss “the most disgustingly morally bankrupt person I have ever had the displeasure of working with” in a series of tweets on Tuesday night.In the string of tweets, Mr Arnold wrote: “Comms Team signing off... forever: Jared, you are the most disgustingly morally bankrupt person I have ever had the displeasure of working with. You do not care about your constituents. You do not care about anyone but yourself.”He went on: “I cannot and will not defend you and your vile, inexcusable contempt for the people who voted you in” as well as adding: “My fear is that now (as I quit) the rest of the staff will leave and once again you will close your office and stop helping anyone but still take your wages until you have the decency to call a byelection.”Comms Team signing off... forever: Jared, you are the most disgustingly morally bankrupt person I have ever had the displeasure of working with. You do not care about your constituents. You do not care about anyone but yourself.— Jared O'Mara (@jaredomaramp) July 23, 2019The tweets on Mr O’Mara’s continued until Arnold finished with the words: “Consider this my resignation. Thanks Gareth Arnold.” with a GIF of Arctic Monkeys frontman Alex Turner dropping an imaginary microphone on stage.On his own Twitter account, where his biography says he: “used to work for an MP (for my sins)”, Mr Arnold referred to his explosive resignation.He wrote: “I am pretty sure Jared is asleep because he hasn't been in for a few weeks and hadn't replied to my WhatsApp... oh crumbs.”He added: “He has just messaged me and he pays that little attention to anything that he's not even seen the tweet all of his constituents have. Unbelievable.”
Consider this my resignation. #recallomara
https://t.co/R2Pd2zu85H

— gareth arnold �� (@garetharnolduk) July 23, 2019



https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknew...unt/ar-AAEL4A5
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Old 24th Jul 2019, 11:03
  #9127 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Gertrude the Wombat View Post
It'll be to rejoin, sooner or later. Yes that means the Euro, and Schegen, and no opt-outs, and no rebates, but we have the #brexshitters to thank for that - we'd rather just stay as we are. But any such policy can only be delivered by an overall majority government - in any other scenario we'd have to take what we could get.
Or maybe that manifesto is not a winnable proposition in election terms.
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Old 24th Jul 2019, 11:32
  #9128 (permalink)  
 
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As a pro EU remain voting constituent I would be very hard pressed to approve a return to the EU if we had to adopt Schengen/Euro etc.

If we actually leave, then we will be out for good. Whether that is a good or bad thing remains to be seen.
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Old 24th Jul 2019, 11:34
  #9129 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by TURIN View Post
As a pro EU remain voting constituent I would be very hard pressed to approve a return to the EU if we had to adopt Schengen/Euro etc.

If we actually leave, then we will be out for good. Whether that is a good or bad thing remains to be seen.
However hard it's been getting out, getting back in will be even harder.
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Old 24th Jul 2019, 12:12
  #9130 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Andy_S View Post
However hard it's been getting out, getting back in will be even harder.
As has been pointed out several times, there is no absolute commitment for EU members to join the euro, only an undertaking to do so when considered appropriate. Which may be never, as demonstrated by Poland.

However we would not regain the current favourable conditions that will be thrown away by Brexit.

It won't happen. Once we have 'taken back control' and handed it over to the US there will be no way back.
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Old 24th Jul 2019, 12:35
  #9131 (permalink)  
 
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It won't happen. Once we have 'taken back control' and handed it over to the US there will be no way back.
fear not, everything will be fine if you behave yourselves and don't sas us back. Meanwhile we have some useful work for you to managed our money as long as you don't sample it.
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Old 24th Jul 2019, 15:13
  #9132 (permalink)  
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If the LibDems killed off the PeoplesVote campaign by saying they wouldn’t accept another leave result, then the Greens have driven a stake through its heart but saying the same thing.

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Old 24th Jul 2019, 15:18
  #9133 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by ORAC
If the LibDems killed off the PeoplesVote campaign...
How can you kill something already dead? As usual, all the dimmers are doing is saying as "news" something which has a) already happened, and b) out of their control in any event.

Laughable really.

Hurrah for Boris
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Old 24th Jul 2019, 15:43
  #9134 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by ORAC View Post
If the LibDems killed off the PeoplesVote campaign by saying they wouldn’t accept another leave result, then the Greens have driven a stake through its heart but saying the same thing.

https://twitter.com/montie/status/11...565606912?s=21
Are you suggesting that if there were a referendum regarding the existence of God, and that in that referendum a majority voted for there being no God, then a churchman, or any other believer who continued to maintain there was a God is undemocratic. The result of a referendum does not confer on the majority the right to decide how the minority thinks - or perhaps that is what Brexiteers truly believe. In which case democracy effectively died on 24th June 2016.

If Jo Swinson or Caroline Lucas wish to continue fight for the UK to be a member of the EU that is their prerogative. If, through new referendum on Johnson's final deal (or no deal) the majority vote to go, then go we should, the following day, if the that was practical. We would know what we were voting for or against. I would still be with Swinson, Lucas and anyone else who believes that decision be a bad one, and would, until I am in my box, lobby to rejoin unless and until it can be proven I (and others are wrong) and that those sunny uplands are reached and we are clearly better off outside the EU. I don't expect that to happen in the time I likely have left on my mortal coil.
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Old 24th Jul 2019, 15:50
  #9135 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by ATNotts View Post
... I don't expect that to happen in the time I likely have left on my mortal coil.
Would that be based on fact or your opinion? Sort of puts you in the position of those churchmen that you mentioned earlier?
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Old 24th Jul 2019, 15:58
  #9136 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Sallyann1234 View Post
As has been pointed out several times, there is no absolute commitment for EU members to join the euro, only an undertaking to do so when considered appropriate. Which may be never, as demonstrated by Poland.

However we would not regain the current favourable conditions that will be thrown away by Brexit.
I've no doubt that the EU would take us back. I was thinking more in terms of domestic resistance. Especially if the terms on offer aren't as good and the cost of the subscription increases.
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Old 24th Jul 2019, 16:11
  #9137 (permalink)  
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Penny Mordaunt gone, Liam Fox, Chris Grayling gone.

Thats plus all the ones who already resigned such as Hammond, Clarke, Livingston, Gauke etc.
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Old 24th Jul 2019, 16:20
  #9138 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by ORAC View Post
Penny Mordaunt gone, Liam Fox, Chris Grayling gone.

Thats plus all the ones who already resigned such as Hammond, Clarke, Livingston, Gauke etc.
Point of order - Clark was sacked, he didn’t resign.

If Failing Grayling was running to form he probably went in intending to ask to stay put, but asked to leave by mistake (it’s reported he left at his own request).
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Old 24th Jul 2019, 16:48
  #9139 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by ORAC View Post
If the LibDems killed off the PeoplesVote campaign by saying they wouldn’t accept another leave result, then the Greens have driven a stake through its heart but saying the same thing.
WTF is wrong with people?

I don't "accept" the result of any election in which my side didn't win.

I immediately start campaigning for it to be overturned next time.

This is normal. This is called "politics". This is called "democracy".
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Old 24th Jul 2019, 16:53
  #9140 (permalink)  
 
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O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!'
He chortled in his joy.

17:25: Karen Bradley sacked as Northern Ireland Secretary. Brad-leave…

17:24: James Brokenshire
as Communities Secretary. Broken-fired…

17:17: Caroline Nokes sacked as Immigration Minister. That’s all, Nokes…

17:16: Damian Hinds
as Education Secretary. Hinds unwinds…

17:11: Chris Grayling quits as Transport Secretary. Grayling bailing…

17:00: Liam Fox
as International Trade Secretary. Out-Foxed…

16:59: Greg Clark
as Business Secretary. Clark parked…

16:44: Penny Mordaunt
as Defence Secretary. Penny drops…

23/7: Mark Spencer appointed Chief Whip. Off the Mark…

Earlier: Hammond, Stewart and Gauke pre-emptively announce resignations.
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