Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > PPRuNe Social > Jet Blast
Reload this Page >

UK Politics Hamsterwheel MkII

Jet Blast Topics that don't fit the other forums. Rules of Engagement apply.

UK Politics Hamsterwheel MkII

Old 29th May 2019, 15:11
  #8401 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: UK
Posts: 1,627
Originally Posted by ShotOne View Post
“False and misleading...”. er, like the 500,000 unemployed Mr Osborne told us we’d have as an immediate consequence of the vote? Don’t get me wrong, I think Boris is a pratt but if we’re doing prosecutions we’ll need a lot of them.
There's a big difference, and you have (inadvertently?) highlighted it in your post, and that is the tense. You say that Osborne said there "would be" 500,000 unemployed after the vote, that was conjecture and certainly open to question, as were the claims that so many million Turks would be looking to live in UK. What Boris Johnson said, and said more than once, was factually, at the time, incorrect. We have never paid £350m per week into the EU, and certainly were not doing so on any of the occasions when he claimed that as a fact.

I'm not saying he is alone in making knowingly untrue statements in election or referendum campaigns, and I certainly believe that this case has been brought for political, ahead of any other reasons. However he has had his collar felt. The judge feels there's a case to be answered, so Johnson is going to wind up in court, which dependent upon the time frame for the court action, makes him a very risky proposition as Tory leader, and by implication the next Prime Minister.

C-CPTN

The is a private prosecution in the criminal courts. The benchmark for proving guilt are the same as had the CPS brought the prosecution. Has Johnson been taken through the civil courts, then, as I understand it the process is different, and the bar for proving the case somewhat lower. As for who has the cleverer QC, that will be Johnson and I fully expect him to be found not guilty.
ATNotts is offline  
Old 29th May 2019, 18:08
  #8402 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: Here
Posts: 287
Originally Posted by ATNotts View Post
There's a big difference, and you have (inadvertently?) highlighted it in your post, and that is the tense. You say that Osborne said there "would be" 500,000 unemployed after the vote, that was conjecture and certainly open to question, as were the claims that so many million Turks would be looking to live in UK. What Boris Johnson said, and said more than once, was factually, at the time, incorrect. We have never paid £350m per week into the EU, and certainly were not doing so on any of the occasions when he claimed that as a fact.

I'm not saying he is alone in making knowingly untrue statements in election or referendum campaigns, and I certainly believe that this case has been brought for political, ahead of any other reasons. However he has had his collar felt. The judge feels there's a case to be answered, so Johnson is going to wind up in court, which dependent upon the time frame for the court action, makes him a very risky proposition as Tory leader, and by implication the next Prime Minister.

C-CPTN

The is a private prosecution in the criminal courts. The benchmark for proving guilt are the same as had the CPS brought the prosecution. Has Johnson been taken through the civil courts, then, as I understand it the process is different, and the bar for proving the case somewhat lower. As for who has the cleverer QC, that will be Johnson and I fully expect him to be found not guilty.
Surely if Osborne said there ‘would’ be 500k unemployed etc that is a definite statement with no room for conjecture? If he had said there ‘could’ be 500k unemployed that may be seen as conjecture.
yellowtriumph is offline  
Old 29th May 2019, 19:15
  #8403 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Longton, Lancs, UK
Age: 75
Posts: 1,491
Ridiculous. I'm no fan of Boris, but FCS. Around the Red Bus were several others, all expressing the same message. So one man with a tin can is able to hire a legal team to bring on this stupid law case. Is there not a sensible procedure in our country that can shelve this waste of time and money before it becomes ludicrous: not only here, but on the world stage. Daft

Last edited by jindabyne; 29th May 2019 at 19:34.
jindabyne is online now  
Old 29th May 2019, 19:26
  #8404 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Hotel Sheets, Downtown Plunketville
Age: 72
Posts: 685
Boris stands for Brexit and there are some very powerful people who will go to any lengths to protect their interests. Do you not remember the Gina Miller Supreme Court case. Who was she and who could have afforded such costly litigation.
Chronus is offline  
Old 29th May 2019, 19:50
  #8405 (permalink)  
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Lincolnshire
Age: 76
Posts: 16,569
Originally Posted by jindabyne View Post
Is there not a sensible procedure in our country that can shelve this waste of time and money before it becomes ludicrous: not only here, but on the world stage. Daft
Be realistic. Whose money is being wasted? It is a perfectly legitimate way of transferring the accusers cash pile to the defence team's bank accounts and the tax payer's money to the judiciary where it is then returned to the Treasury via Income Tax and VAT.

Time? Time is money and we have already discussed that.
Pontius Navigator is online now  
Old 29th May 2019, 20:57
  #8406 (permalink)  
Está servira para distraerle.
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: In a perambulator.
Posts: 0
You're going to have a court case to illustrate to the world the fact that either the vast mass of the population is so grammatically inept that it can't correctly interpret a single sentence or that it is so gullible that, having misinterpreted it, it believes its own misinterpretation.
Just when you thought that the Remainers couldn't sacrifice anything further in their mad attempt to resemble a crushed camembert coated croissant.
cavortingcheetah is offline  
Old 29th May 2019, 20:59
  #8407 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Cambridge, England, EU
Posts: 3,415
Originally Posted by jindabyne View Post
Ridiculous. I'm no fan of Boris, but FCS. Around the Red Bus were several others, all expressing the same message. So one man with a tin can is able to hire a legal team to bring on this stupid law case. Is there not a sensible procedure in our country that can shelve this waste of time and money before it becomes ludicrous: not only here, but on the world stage. Daft
Actually I would welcome a climate change in which people thought twice before lying in political campaigns. We have to waste a lot of time, money and effort trying, and usually failing, to counter straightforward deliberate lies during pretty well every election campaign.

About the only thing that would be beyond the pale at the moment (so we are advised by our agents, whose job it is to know this stuff) would be a false claim that an opposing candidate was a convicted paedophile. Anything else goes. I think we can do better than this. And if the meeja won't hold liars to account, which even the BBC won't these days, and government ministers don't automatically resign when found to be liars, as they used to, and the courts have to deal with it instead, then so be it.
Gertrude the Wombat is offline  
Old 29th May 2019, 21:09
  #8408 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Currently within the EU
Posts: 315
Originally Posted by cavortingcheetah View Post
You're going to have a court case to illustrate to the world the fact that either the vast mass of the population is so grammatically inept that it can't correctly interpret a single sentence or that it is so gullible that, having misinterpreted it, it believes its own misinterpretation.
You (and others) seem to misunderstand the case. It's nothing to do with the red bus and its carefully constructed slogan.

It's about a person in public office making false claims intended to deceive the public who paid his salary.

Sallyann1234 is online now  
Old 29th May 2019, 21:32
  #8409 (permalink)  
Está servira para distraerle.
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: In a perambulator.
Posts: 0
It's about a person in public office making false claims intended to deceive the public who paid his salary.

That presupposes a certain nobility of motive which is very far removed from the real one of Ball and those who support him. One can only marvel at the hypocrisy, worthy of the Lib Dems at the least, while at the same time wondering why a retrospective action has not been brought against Blair for taking Britain into a war. Could it be perhaps because Blair is a remainer? It certainly can't be because it isn't true.
I hear that Marcus Ball pays himself a salary from his crowd funding and that he has been known to redact statements to suit moments of time in the future. Of course, Ball is not a person in public office but might he not be a person whose salary is paid by the public?
I expect some squirming will ensue when Ball realises that his name is oxymoronic to the cause in question.
cavortingcheetah is offline  
Old 29th May 2019, 21:39
  #8410 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Northampton
Posts: 510
Has it been proven the claim is false?
rogerg is online now  
Old 29th May 2019, 21:46
  #8411 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Currently within the EU
Posts: 315
Originally Posted by cavortingcheetah View Post
It's about a person in public office making false claims intended to deceive the public who paid his salary.

That presupposes a certain nobility of motive which is very far removed from the real one of Ball and those who support him. One can only marvel at the hypocrisy, worthy of the Lib Dems at the least, while at the same time wondering why a retrospective action has not been brought against Blair for taking Britain into a war. Could it be perhaps because Blair is a remainer? It certainly can't be because it isn't true.
I hear that Marcus Ball pays himself a salary from his crowd funding and that he has been known to redact statements to suit moments of time in the future. Of course, Ball is not a person in public office but might he not be a person whose salary is paid by the public?
I expect some squirming will ensue when Ball realises that his name is oxymoronic to the cause in question.
So you have replaced your objection, because your original story that

You're going to have a court case to illustrate to the world the fact that either the vast mass of the population is so grammatically inept that it can't correctly interpret a single sentence or that it is so gullible that, having misinterpreted it, it believes its own misinterpretation.
was wrong.
Sallyann1234 is online now  
Old 29th May 2019, 21:53
  #8412 (permalink)  
Está servira para distraerle.
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: In a perambulator.
Posts: 0


You have to be illiterate or stupid to think that this really says:
'We send the EU £350 million a week, let's use that all that money on the NHS instead.'
As for the amounts involved, the EU's own Court of Auditors has refused to sign off the accounts for the last twenty years, so with that level of corruption on the go, what on earth does it matter if there is more than one interpretation of gross.
cavortingcheetah is offline  
Old 29th May 2019, 21:57
  #8413 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Currently within the EU
Posts: 315
Originally Posted by cavortingcheetah View Post


You have to be illiterate or stupid to think that this really says:
'We send the EU £350 million a week, let's use that all that money on the NHS instead.'
As for the amounts involved, the EU's own Court of Auditors has refused to sign off the accounts for the last twenty years, so with that level of corruption on the go, what on earth does it matter if there is more than one interpretation of gross.
Now you repeat your previous false claim.

The trial of Boris Johnson is nothing to do with the bus. It is about his personal statements in public office.
Sallyann1234 is online now  
Old 29th May 2019, 21:58
  #8414 (permalink)  
Resident insomniac
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: N54 58 34 W02 01 21
Age: 75
Posts: 1,859
Originally Posted by rogerg View Post
Has it been proven the claim is false?
Isn't that the purpose of the court case?

G-CPTN is offline  
Old 29th May 2019, 21:58
  #8415 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Norfolk
Age: 63
Posts: 2
Originally Posted by rogerg View Post
Has it been proven the claim is false?
It is commonly reported that the UK pays £19 billion to the EU each year. £350 million a week comes to £18.2 billion, so the figure printed on the bus is possibly an under estimate.

So £350 million is the gross outgoing figure. No mention is made of rebates or payments made to the UK by the EU in support of EU sponsored and funded projects.

Boris Johnson was at no point inaccurate, but neither did he give a full accountnof how the figures were arrived at. So the amounts are actually immaterial. The case will revolve around whether certain statements were made, by a person holding high public office, in an attempt to deliberately mislead the public.

In that vein, a lot of MPs should be quaking in their boots over promises to deliver Brexit.
G0ULI is offline  
Old 29th May 2019, 21:59
  #8416 (permalink)  
Está servira para distraerle.
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: In a perambulator.
Posts: 0
Dear me, Sally Ann, no.
cavortingcheetah is offline  
Old 29th May 2019, 22:44
  #8417 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Cambridge, England, EU
Posts: 3,415
Originally Posted by cavortingcheetah View Post
As for the amounts involved, the EU's own Court of Auditors has refused to sign off the accounts for the last twenty years
Lies don't become true just because you keep repeating them.
Gertrude the Wombat is offline  
Old 29th May 2019, 23:38
  #8418 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 1999
Location: Manchester, UK
Posts: 1,889
False claims?...like “ WMD’s deployable in 45mins”, “prudent financial policy” while fire-hosing our money away. Or, even more laughable: “this action is not politically motivated”.
ShotOne is online now  
Old 30th May 2019, 04:49
  #8419 (permalink)  
Thought police antagonist
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Where I always have been...firmly in the real world
Posts: 918
Nope, it's not Brexit although it does involve JR-M. ...author of his own downfall you might say. Albeit ID-S is a clear winner here.

Be interesting to see how Dave does as we know, plus, should she ever write one, which may not be a wise move on her part, Treeza's illustrious career in print

https://www.theguardian.com/politics...hers-take-note
A dilemma for Nige though. Despite his protestations, Nige has always had a strong affinity for the more extreme right wing elements, albeit those who manage a façade of respectability. Hence this proposed "meeting of minds ". but, as the article says, Nige also wants to be completely in charge......we can only hope this doesn't have a happy ending therefore......

https://www.theguardian.com/politics...-eu-parliament

Last edited by Krystal n chips; 30th May 2019 at 05:00.
Krystal n chips is offline  
Old 30th May 2019, 05:41
  #8420 (permalink)  
Está servira para distraerle.
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: In a perambulator.
Posts: 0
Gertrude the Wombat.....

I saw that written on the side of a bus. One made in 2007 because before then they were all very bendy instead of being totally bent.
cavortingcheetah is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us Archive Advertising Cookie Policy Privacy Statement Terms of Service

Copyright © 2018 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.