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UK Politics Hamsterwheel MkII

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UK Politics Hamsterwheel MkII

Old 27th May 2019, 16:45
  #8321 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by ORAC View Post
It rests on the elected politicians in the HoC to find a compromise position where a majority lies and to be able to go back to Brussels with the voters behind them to show the decided mood of the country as the other leaders continually demand. And going back to the people in either a referendum or election is not going to answer that question or cross that divide.
Well, it seems that after three years, we are back where we started. What a waste of time, emotional energy, money, national cohesion, international credibility and unique opportunity.

Regrettably, I agree that it has to be the worthless politicians who orchestrated this mess to extricate us from it. But by any form of logic, your suggested compromise has to be impossible. The 2016 referendum was posed in binary form, therefore it follows that there can be no provision for compromise. It is the refusal of the same politicians together with sundry self-serving others and a substantial proportion of the minority to accept the outcome of the referendum, (thus denying the most basic of democratic principles), that has engineered this sorry state. Of course, the late unlamented Theresa May and her snivelling hangers-on in failing to impose any authority in upholding the process have only compounded the situation. Yet, seemingly hoards of these same people as prospective PMs would have us believe that they have experienced some miraculous conversion which has endowed them with the answers to all the questions and the new-found ability to implement them. When you have that young chap, can't remember his name but the simian-featured fellow, saying that he will refuse to serve under Boris (presupposing Boris invites him to), one really has to wonder what horrors our future holds. We genuinely have a national emergency and it is hardly a time for ego-centrists and projected personalities.

We have been gulled before - I fear that since nothing appears to have changed, we are likely to suffer a similar fate again. If May et al had been possessed of any nous, they would have taken Farage on board, given him a peerage or whatever and effectively neutralised him. Instead, they ignored him so it is no wonder that he is back with an annihilating majority. I have absolutely no confidence in the Conservative government having the ability to learn anything from this disaster or to formulate an appropriate response to it.

From where is our saviour to come?

.
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Old 27th May 2019, 16:49
  #8322 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by VP959 View Post
The Green Party have 7, ~10.94% of the total so far - clearly all pro-Remain.
Not sure I agree with you there. I suspect a lot of Green votes were influenced by all the recent news coverage of environmental issues and plastic pollution, so exactly how many of their votes can truly be counted as clearly pro-remain?

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Old 27th May 2019, 16:56
  #8323 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by ATNotts View Post
As I posted earlier, they appeared to garner in a lot of money in a very short period of time, I'm sure some of it was in sterling, where some of the rest came from obviously we don't know at this stage. I'm sure all will become clear in a year or so. Money enabled them to produce expensive flyers, offer their supporters signs to stick in their gardens / windows - all very professionally designed and printed. That doesn't come cheap.

Cheating brought the leave campaign victory in June 2016, got Trump into office, and I feel sure an element of the same will be found over last weeks election.
I can't see it, personally. We had well-produced flyers from Change UK, UKIP and from Labour, yet no one seems to be accusing them of cheating. Is this view that the Brexit Party have cheated simply sour grapes because you'd have rather seen them crash and burn? (just to be absolutely clear I did not vote for them, neither did I vote for UKIP)
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Old 27th May 2019, 16:58
  #8324 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by MFC_Fly View Post
Not sure I agree with you there. I suspect a lot of Green votes were influenced by all the recent news coverage of environmental issues and plastic pollution, so exactly how many of their votes can truly be counted as clearly pro-remain?
I agree, I was just using their official party stance which is strongly in support of Remain. I too think that a fair proportion of Green Party votes may well have arisen from the recent publicity surrounding climate change and pollution.
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Old 27th May 2019, 17:13
  #8325 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by MFC_Fly View Post
And how exactly did you come to that conclusion?

Yes, the Brexit Party and UKIP stood purely for Brexit and the Lib Dems and the CHUKs were standing pretty much purely for those that wanted to vote to remain. However, although the Greens are a party that supports remain many of their voters were probably more concerned by all the recent news about the state of the environment and plastic waste, etc, so you can't honestly count a Green vote as a definite remain vote. As for the Conservatives, the party clearly stands for Brexit, even if some of the membership don't, so how many of their votes can go to the remain side and how many can go to the Brexit side? And then we get to Labour... well... what can I say about them? Who knows what it is they stand for? Maybe one day they will actually get off the fence and let us all know rather than trying to make the old Labour supporting remainers think they are a remain party and the old Labour supporting leavers think the area Brexit supporting party. So divvying up their vote is complete guess work.
Good point. Neither of the main political parties truly allied themselves either with Remain or Brexit so it would be interesting to know whether the individuals that voted for either of these two weren’t that bothered about one way or another about the Europe issue so just based their choice on their own particular leaning. However, I can’t help feeling the Lib Dems saw the opportunity to try exploit the vote of those that wanted Remain.

Unfortunately, a lot of people in the U.K. seem to have a blind loyalty to a particular political party, irrespective of that party’s manifesto. This is often the case in particular areas, their perception of their own class and even some of my family members - albeit the older generation - who choose to vote Conservative “because I always have”
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Old 27th May 2019, 17:26
  #8326 (permalink)  
 
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As a staunch Remainer, I now have a dilemma;
Across Europe the EU parliament vote seems to have been a reaction to the various governments rather than who we feel should be the representatives to control European policy.
The result is a prominence of 'token' parties few of whom have any policies about future economic strategy. All in all a lot of tree huggers.
So is this the Europe that I so strongly wanted to be a member of? Is this the range of people and policies that can decide the future of the Europe that I wanted to be a part of?
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Old 27th May 2019, 17:39
  #8327 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by funfly View Post
As a staunch Remainer, I now have a dilemma;
Across Europe the EU parliament vote seems to have been a reaction to the various governments rather than who we feel should be the representatives to control European policy.
The result is a prominence of 'token' parties few of whom have any policies about future economic strategy. All in all a lot of tree huggers.
So is this the Europe that I so strongly wanted to be a member of? Is this the range of people and policies that can decide the future of the Europe that I wanted to be a part of?
It does seem to have made a mockery of the whole process of governing the EU. Apparently the single largest party in the EU is now the Brexit Party, who have no interest at all in making the EU work, for obvious reasons. I dare say there are other parties now represented within the EU parliament that similarly have no interest in making the EU work.

Perhaps it's just as well that much of the policy and direction the EU takes seems to have little to do with the elected parliament.
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Old 27th May 2019, 17:44
  #8328 (permalink)  
 
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@BBE, the collapse of the conservative and labour votes, and the benefit to LDs and Greens shows that many people did indeed desert their voting norms. What would happen in a general election I don't know. Farage is sure to pick up more votes from the cons than lab without a con/ brexit pact which would split the con party. It's no wonder JC is reluctant to commit.
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Old 27th May 2019, 19:09
  #8329 (permalink)  
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The UK result strikes me as analogous to the Titanic band voting to make the guy who was on iceberg watch the new band leader...
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Old 27th May 2019, 19:11
  #8330 (permalink)  
 
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For the third time the UK electorate has decisively voted in favour of leaving the EU. It doesn't matter how you manipulate the figures, spin, or nuance the result, the decision is still in favour of leaving.
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Old 27th May 2019, 19:26
  #8331 (permalink)  
 
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Old 27th May 2019, 19:42
  #8332 (permalink)  
 
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GOULI

No it hasn't!

Not by a long way. Tot up the totals. You can equally say that the UK electorate voted Remain.
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Old 27th May 2019, 19:45
  #8333 (permalink)  
 
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I deed so. Would say more but Springwatch is on TV and finding the remote and it's off button is a priority.
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Old 27th May 2019, 19:45
  #8334 (permalink)  
 
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Super VC-10,

But they wouldn't. Just like they didn't in the last General Election compared to the previous European elections, you know, the one where UKIP won 24 seats in Europe and not a single one in the UK GE.
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Old 27th May 2019, 19:53
  #8335 (permalink)  
 
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Labour just came out for Referendum 2.
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Old 27th May 2019, 20:51
  #8336 (permalink)  
 
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No they didn’t. Corbyn stated just a few hours ago “We’ve had a very clear policy all along” (really?). And that he’s “listening carefully to both sides of the debate “
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Old 27th May 2019, 20:55
  #8337 (permalink)  
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It's his sidekick who is making noises about a second referendum.
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Old 27th May 2019, 20:57
  #8338 (permalink)  
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Old 27th May 2019, 21:21
  #8339 (permalink)  
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Old 27th May 2019, 21:30
  #8340 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by VP959 View Post
If, as the staunch Remain supporters keep saying, there is so much support for Remain, why did the new Brexit Party, that had only been in existence for 6 weeks, collect more votes than any other party?
Brexit votes down from 17.4m to a little over 5m.

Rather fewer than the 6m who signed a petition to #RevokeA50.
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