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UK Politics Hamsterwheel MkII

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UK Politics Hamsterwheel MkII

Old 7th May 2019, 15:34
  #7781 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by cavortingcheetah View Post

Brexit latest news: Jean-Claude Juncker says EU should have interfered in UK referendum to 'destroy' Brexit 'lies'

The next time a country needs to be interfered with, the evil empire will have its own army, not the Wehrmacht, the EUmacht and that's what will be doing the interfering in any disagreements.
Well as we happen to be members of the EU, and there was a glut of lies as to why we should leave, many of these carefully orchestrated and published as headline "facts !" ...he's got a valid point.

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Old 7th May 2019, 17:36
  #7782 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by NutLoose View Post
It is because it fundamentally undermines the process of democracy
One referendum is democratic, but another referendum undermines democracy.

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Old 7th May 2019, 17:37
  #7783 (permalink)  
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Rory Stewart is a very bright boy who has risen extremely high on Teresa's coat tails while actually doing or achieving very little. His reward for unswerving loyalty was his recent promotion. He is a theoretical intellectual politician of extraordinary if very narrow ability, dedicated to his mistress, seeking now, in the devastation leading to her downfall, to make his own move for high office, something for which he is, imnsho, broadly speaking, somewhat unqualified.

His record as Minister for Prisons is particularly questionable, the subject of a nice little gloss over from a man whose concept of prison reform led to an increase in prison violence and suicides during his tenure of office. His resignation offer, were he to be unsuccessful in turning around Britain's prisons, has been neatly side stepped by his promotion, a neat get out of jail free card after he conspicuously failed to do that which he had promised, to resign were he unable to do so.

Edit: I added a comma...!

Last edited by cavortingcheetah; 7th May 2019 at 19:35.
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Old 7th May 2019, 19:42
  #7784 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by pax britanica View Post
I must admit to being a strong stayer but one thing this whole process has shown up is how hopelessly out of date Westminster with its robes rods and maces is . It has also brought out the real rabid right who really want to make 90% of the country worse off to protect themselves even though many who support the likes of the ERG traitors are likely to end up as the very worst off . Socialists t might well be inept and a bit hypocrital at times but they are not pure evil like the Tory hard right . Of course when you look at elft and right then you have to consider why there isnt a more centrist approach in British politics . Cameron Brexit aside was someone many labour supporters could live with just as Blair Iraq aside was someone many conservatives could live with. In both parties the tendency is not to try and work with the relatively like minded in the opposing party but to try and appease the hard left wing of the Labour party and the bring back slavery for anyone without a knighthood Tory right

We are almost at the point where a vote held three years ago in almost complete ignorance-on all sides- is still touted as relevant today. Thats probably the stupidest argument in the history of the world. If a week is along time in Politics three years is an aeon .
Oh dear PB, I only got half way down your, no doubt well intended, post and I must have gone "Ugh, No, No" about a dozen times.

So you're a "strong stayer". Oh well, my commiserations, and hope the subs for Continuity UK aren't too pricey

"Real, rabid right who want to make 90% of the country worse off, etc" What planet are you on? Do Remainers STILL not get the reason why 17.4M voted leave was exactly the opposite, I.e. the fact so much power and wealth is in the hands of so few!?

As for idolising Cameron and Blair, that's really not clever. Cameron, the serial referenda gambler, got us to where we are now. And Blair, he's a religious zealot and weirdo and, in many peoples opinion, a war criminal. If that's your idea of "centrism" then I despair. I stopped reading at that point...
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Old 7th May 2019, 19:49
  #7785 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by pax britanica View Post
As an 'ardent remainer' i dont think a second referendum would be a landslide for remain but I do think a lot of the determined quitter stuff is a lot of noise from the big mouth small brain element of leave, And I doubt for example that the people of say Swindon will vote leave anymore and a few other towns. Also is peopel are so confident that leave would still win why not have a second referendum which is being avoided at all and any cost because of fear of losing.

The point is while 1.7m sounds a lot in percentage terms it isnt and remains scarcely ran campaign last time, that and the huge bias in the press and dodgy donations certainly helped the quit view. Also there is the issue that this si all about the future and the voting demographics matter. For my part as an over 60 I dint think anyone my age and up should be allowed to vote anyway and among Cameron,s lackadaisical approach if he agreed to a referendum it should have had a threshold .

Of course we are where we are and while the 'just get it over with attitude ' is utterly stupid ' along the lines of putting your car in a garage and they ringing you two weeks running because they cant get the parts and you saying oh well just scrap it then' we do desrve another vote. After all the Tory party seem to want to change their mind on the PM and yet are petrified of a second referendum
Coulda, woulda, shoulda, but he did, they didn't and WE did!

That said, if another vote is good enough for Turkey then why not us as well. You can never have too much democracy - as nobody said, ever.
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Old 7th May 2019, 21:46
  #7786 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Sallyann1234 View Post
One referendum is democratic, but another referendum undermines democracy.
No that would be a rather stupid appraisal of the situation..
The problem is that remainers want to have a second referendum that they insist should be acted upon and taken as a proper decision when the first one has not yet been acted upon and should just be thrown away.
A very selfish, arrogant attitude I must say and one that seems prevalent in vocal remainers

The constant dissinformation that states we didnt know what we voted for is bunk, we voted to leave, all this soft/hard rubbish came after the vote

Last edited by Hyperdark; 8th May 2019 at 09:00.
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Old 7th May 2019, 21:47
  #7787 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Sallyann1234 View Post
One referendum is democratic, but another referendum undermines democracy.
Yes.

Now let us suppose as PB observed, that as we are better informed we are offered a second referendum. As everything is not equal, ardent opposites would maintain their position. The middle may disdain or abstain or remain confused. Having watched our establishment demonstrate absolutely no resolution in three years would fewer even bother to vote?

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Old 7th May 2019, 22:35
  #7788 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by LowNSlow View Post
I'll be going to the hustings to listen to them all trying to justify their existence.
I can save you the trouble. It's really quite easy.
  • The candidates don't matter a damn. You can't vote for candidates, you can only vote for a party.
  • If you want #brexit, vote for the Brexit party.
  • If you want to stop #brexit, vote Lib Dem.
  • If you want #brexit but don't like Farridge you can vote for one of the other #brexit parties - Tory, Labour, UKIP, DUP - but (other than in NI) all you'll be doing is splitting the #brexit vote.
  • If you want to Remain but don't like the Lib Dems you can vote for one of the other Remain parties - Green, Change UK, SNP, PC, Alliance - but (other than in NI) all you'll be doing is splitting the Remain vote.
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Old 7th May 2019, 23:47
  #7789 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Gertrude the Wombat View Post
I can save you the trouble. It's really quite easy.
  • The candidates don't matter a damn. You can't vote for candidates, you can only vote for a party.
  • If you want #brexit, vote for the Brexit party.
  • If you want to stop #brexit, vote Lib Dem.
  • If you want #brexit but don't like Farridge you can vote for one of the other #brexit parties - Tory, Labour, UKIP, DUP - but (other than in NI) all you'll be doing is splitting the #brexit vote.
  • If you want to Remain but don't like the Lib Dems you can vote for one of the other Remain parties - Green, Change UK, SNP, PC, Alliance - but (other than in NI) all you'll be doing is splitting the Remain vote.
Well done, that was a very reasonable post.
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Old 8th May 2019, 05:35
  #7790 (permalink)  
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Nige is another for whom, thankfully, aviation was not his chosen career. Imagine the confusion when asked to vacate the runway " take the next convenient right ( obviously ! ) exit " when your expertise is confined to backtracking. Nige demonstrates his expertise in the link below

However, he's obviously done a risk assessment here, not difficult really, as in tried seven times, failed seven times to become an MP, hence a sacrificial sycophant will have been found for Peterborough, and, in the finest tradition of great leaders, whilst he will no doubt be there in spirit, he's, sadly, got more pressing commitments elsewhere......should, by any remote chance, the candidate get elected, Nige will doubtless suddenly become available to pose for the photo-ops and take full credit for his choice of candidate.....

https://www.theguardian.com/politics...ow-appearances

Here's Treeza enjoying a day out......

https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...sa-may-cartoon

Last edited by Krystal n chips; 8th May 2019 at 07:28.
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Old 8th May 2019, 08:05
  #7791 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Harley Quinn View Post
Well done, that was a very reasonable post.
But as GTW kindly pointed out in his link to the election system, whatever happens about half the candidate groups will get no seats in anyone one region and nationally might get only a couple.

Even a large lead (but not massive) will also not clean the board.

There are 12 regions with between 3 and 10 seats. There are 73 seats.

Last edited by Pontius Navigator; 8th May 2019 at 08:28.
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Old 8th May 2019, 08:25
  #7792 (permalink)  
 
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Yes sallyanne it undermines democracy because the first vote was taken and the people decided the fate of the Countries future path, but those elected to enact the will of the people have not carried it out, but are trying to subvert that democratic process by attempting to hold another vote to change the original result without carrying out the will of the people they were elected to represent. There was never anything in the first referendum about a soft Brexit, nor a partial Brexit or cancelling Brexit, therefore if those elected cannot decide, the only logical route is the leave without an agreement to ensure the democratic process has been adhered too.


Breathing

Last edited by NutLoose; 8th May 2019 at 09:24.
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Old 8th May 2019, 08:44
  #7793 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by NutLoose View Post
Yes sallyanne it undermines democracy because the first vote was taken and the people decided the fate of the Countries future path, but those elected to enact the will of the people have not carried it out, but are trying to subvert that democratic process by attempting to hold another vote to change the original result without carrying out the will of the people they were elected to represent, there was never anything in the first referendum about a soft Brexit, nor a partial Brexit or a cancelling Brexit, therefore if those elected cannot decide, the only logical route is the leave without an agreement to ensure the democratic process has been adhered to
And breathe!
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Old 8th May 2019, 08:44
  #7794 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Gertrude the Wombat View Post
I can save you the trouble.
  • If you want to Remain but don't like the Lib Dems you can vote for one of the other Remain parties - Green, Change UK, SNP, PC, Alliance - but (other than in NI) all you'll be doing is splitting the Remain vote.
And to emphasise the point again, and as I think as PN was doing - because of the d'Hondt system in use in England/Wales/Scotland "splitting" the votes might quite possibly mean the minor parties will get zero seats...To have any impact on the result I suspect many on the remain side of the house are going to have to hold their noses and vote Lib Dem...

Worked example of why and how here:

http://www.europarl.europa.eu/united...ng_system.html
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Old 8th May 2019, 09:06
  #7795 (permalink)  
 
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It really is amusing to see the claims that democracy ended three years ago and no one is permitted to change their mind.
There's a clear undertone of desperation that wiser minds might prevail and snatch away their dream of little England ruling the waves once again.

But you needn't worry. I can't imagine that the EU really wants to keep this bitterly divided country as a member any longer. We are more trouble to them than we are worth.

As for the the EU Elections, there never was a more pointless, unnecessary exercise.
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Old 8th May 2019, 09:11
  #7796 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by NutLoose View Post
Yes sallyanne it undermines democracy because the first vote was taken and the people decided the fate of the Countries future path, but those elected to enact the will of the people have not carried it out, but are trying to subvert that democratic process by attempting to hold another vote to change the original result without carrying out the will of the people they were elected to represent, there was never anything in the first referendum about a soft Brexit, nor a partial Brexit or a cancelling Brexit, therefore if those elected cannot decide, the only logical route is the leave without an agreement to ensure the democratic process has been adhered to
Actually NutLoose, there was not a vote taken but a referendum was held. As I am sure that you know, a referendum is never legally binding so there is nothing to stop the government from ignoring the referendum result. There would be no legal recourse for anybody as by definition a referendum is only advisory.

Before you ask, I think that the government would be very foolish to ignore the result of the referendum. Especially after saying that they will implement the result. The Dutch government has ignored the result of a referendum in the past and it doesn’t look good on them. However legally speaking it does not undermine democracy as it wasn’t legally binding in the first place.


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Old 8th May 2019, 09:30
  #7797 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Sallyann1234 View Post
It really is amusing to see the claims that democracy ended three years ago and no one is permitted to change their mind.
There's a clear undertone of desperation that wiser minds might prevail and snatch away their dream of little England ruling the waves once again.

But you needn't worry. I can't imagine that the EU really wants to keep this bitterly divided country as a member any longer. We are more trouble to them than we are worth.

As for the the EU Elections, there never was a more pointless, unnecessary exercise.
Actually the EU elections may well be a wake up call to those in Westminster as to the mood of the Country even if pointless. When the referendum was held three years ago it was known at the time the process would take that amount of time to withdraw and the process hasn't as yet been allowed to run its course.
Remember all the parties signed up and agreed to article 50, yes people change their minds, but a lot of that has to do with the scaremongering that has been rampant in the press and parliament since the decision was made.
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Old 8th May 2019, 09:41
  #7798 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by NutLoose View Post
Actually the EU elections may well be a wake up call to those in Westminster as to the mood of the Country even if pointless. When the referendum was held three years ago it was known at the time the process would take that amount of time to withdraw and the process hasn't as yet been allowed to run its course.
Remember all the parties signed up and agreed to article 50, yes people change their minds, but a lot of that has to do with the scaremongering that has been rampant in the press and parliament since the decision was made.
Oh really ?...well, in that case, take yer pick from any of the montage that follows when it comes to scaremongering in the press prior to the referendum.....and feel free to quantify which headlines you feel are factually correct.....and why.

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=fa...w=1280&bih=855
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Old 8th May 2019, 10:20
  #7799 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by NutLoose View Post
Actually the EU elections may well be a wake up call to those in Westminster as to the mood of the Country even if pointless. When the referendum was held three years ago it was known at the time the process would take that amount of time to withdraw and the process hasn't as yet been allowed to run its course.
Remember all the parties signed up and agreed to article 50, yes people change their minds, but a lot of that has to do with the scaremongering that has been rampant in the press and parliament since the decision was made.
Those in Westminster have already had that wake up call. In fact they have had several and ignored them all.
Each little faction is determined to get their own way, regardless of the needs of the country.

I've had a look at the list of candidates in my local constituency. Two erstwhile major parties, neither of which has a clearly stated policy of being either in or out of the EU. In an EU election FFS! And so many others to choose from that I suspect most voters will put their cross at random, or more likely stay at home. I certainly won't be wasting my time doing something that can have no effect whatever.
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Old 8th May 2019, 10:29
  #7800 (permalink)  
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Green Party EU election launch, predictably.... held in Islington.....
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