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UK Politics Hamsterwheel MkII

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UK Politics Hamsterwheel MkII

Old 29th Nov 2018, 16:50
  #761 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by ATNotts View Post
Do I hear the words "fear" and "project" but not necessarily in the same order?

I still fail to understand why the government, well Mrs May at any rate, isn't pointing out these issues to all those who really need to understand them - the MPs, not only from her own party but others too. How ever many short coming her deal has - and it has many, failing to back it is playing hard and fast with the country's future, and that of it's citizens, no matter which way they voted in the referendum.
Because they (the back benchers) simply don’t want to hear it.

They are currently convinced that if Mrs May’s deal founders then the EU will offer something significantly better (“they need us more than” etc) or that no deal/WTO is better (“free at last, free at last.....oh, now, about those tariffs that we’ve yet to discuss)......




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Old 29th Nov 2018, 17:39
  #762 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by wiggy View Post


Because they (the back benchers) simply don’t want to hear it.

They are currently convinced that if Mrs May’s deal founders then the EU will offer something significantly better (“they need us more than” etc) or that no deal/WTO is better (“free at last, free at last.....oh, now, about those tariffs that we’ve yet to discuss)......
It's about time that everyone in this country, MPs included, accepted that there is no other alternative.
No further negotiation. No second referendum.
It's this unsatisfactory deal, or none.
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Old 29th Nov 2018, 18:18
  #763 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Sallyann1234 View Post
It's about time that everyone in this country, MPs included, accepted that there is no other alternative.
No further negotiation. No second referendum.
It's this unsatisfactory deal, or none.
Agreed, the trouble is some/many find “none” the preferred option.
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Old 29th Nov 2018, 18:23
  #764 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by ATNotts View Post
I very much doubt it, everyone will be effected - however as usual, they are less dependent upon the UK than the UK is on Europe. That's a fact, not project fear.

Incidentally, another little problem related to UK road haulage is that Brits are reluctant to take on LGV jobs these days, all the big hauliers are constantly looking for drivers. How will UK hauliers cope when the UK govt has closed it's doors on low skilled workers from the EU. Much the same a fruit growers, the hospitality industry, the caring professions I suspect - badly!

This is why, as I mentioned The UK can't afford the cliff edge. Mrs. May needs to buy time, and that time is the transition period which we will only get if we sign up to the whole agreement. Nothing is agreed until everything is agreed.

One of our biggest customers has stuggled for years to find enough HGV drivers - not just UK, but in Germany, France and Holland also.

Main reason is that to stay competitive with all the ' Flag of Convenience ' HGVs running around Europe from Eastern Europe, driver's wages have to be low for the company to remain competitive. At some point, they finally become too low to be attractive to those already resident in the higher wage economies of Europe.

I'm sure it's the same with many other low-skilled professions - logistics ( both transport and warehouses ) and hospitality being the main pressure points.

It's a vicious circle, I'm afraid, and one which is inherent in the EU's unique approach to economics. There just can't be 27 countries with the same economic proeperity, and all of economic history tells us that you can't drag the 20 least prosperous up to the prosperity levels of the other seven but it's fairly easy and much easier to reduce the gap by lowering the comparative prosperity of the Top7. How do you that ? Free movement of labour is a huge tool for precisely that reason.

One could even argue it's been a little bit the same with what the bottom feeders have brought to some parts of our own industry the past decade, although you'd hardly rate flightdeck crew as low skilled ! Be honest - would anybody, 20 years ago, have imagined that you could earn almost as little driving a yellow Airbus between Barcelona and Paris as you do driving an HGV full of tomatoes between Barcelona and Paris ??
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Old 29th Nov 2018, 18:40
  #765 (permalink)  
 
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I expect your customer has generously offered to up their rates to help then. It's a crushing bore to lay every single issue discussed here squarely at the door of the European union whether or not you have any direct professional insight into it or not. Many issues bear on the availability of labour in the HGV market, the EU has a role in that especially with the driver CPC however the argument that Eastern Europeans are undercutting transport companies in Barnsley or Biarritz is nonsense & a delicious illustration of blind prejudice.
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Old 29th Nov 2018, 19:14
  #766 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by ATNotts;10323678I
UK road haulage is that Brits are reluctant to take on LGV jobs these days, all the big hauliers are constantly looking for drivers. How will UK hauliers cope when the UK govt has closed it's doors on low skilled workers from the EU..
I beg to disagree about low skilled. I had the pleasure on a cruise of dining with a truck driver. Not low skilled or simple manual work. In many respects his rules, regulation and requirements bore comparison with a plane driver.
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Old 29th Nov 2018, 19:22
  #767 (permalink)  
 
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I agree but they would fall into the unwanted low skill bracket as defined by this month's Prime Minister. Fact is nonetheless, until you can get a loaf of bread down a phone line, you're going to need them.
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Old 29th Nov 2018, 19:32
  #768 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Sprogget View Post
I expect your customer has generously offered to up their rates to help then. It's a crushing bore to lay every single issue discussed here squarely at the door of the European union whether or not you have any direct professional insight into it or not. Many issues bear on the availability of labour in the HGV market, the EU has a role in that especially with the driver CPC however the argument that Eastern Europeans are undercutting transport companies in Barnsley or Biarritz is nonsense & a delicious illustration of blind prejudice.

Our customer almost put themselves out of business through individual depots / warehouses ' stealing ' drivers from each other to fulfill the contracts they serviced..

Only small wage rises each time, but when which were introduced every couple of months for 300 drivers at each location soon added K000s to the monthly costs for 40+ depots.

Wonder how many Transport companies from Barnsley or Biarritz are able to undercut carriers from Budapest or Brno on their home turf ? Wise up for once....

Not everything is the EU's fault. It has done much good over the years. But I don't have your rose tints, so I'll call the truth when it's the truth.
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Old 29th Nov 2018, 19:54
  #769 (permalink)  
 
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I'm a professional haulage contractor. I do this for 60+ hours per week. So sure, I'll wise up for once if you say so.
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Old 29th Nov 2018, 21:19
  #770 (permalink)  
 
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Sprogget so how does your hourly rate now compare with what it was say 10 years ago. My driver pal reckons his rate has dropped by around 30%. Remonstrations with his boss produced the reply; walk if you want there are plenty of lads from the East that will start tomorrow on your hourly rate.
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Old 29th Nov 2018, 21:50
  #771 (permalink)  
 
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Well well, the debate about the debate about the debate seems to have been overshadowed by #VicarGate - apparently the BBC are failing to find enough #brexit supporters for their vox pops and panels and have had to resort to hiring actors dressed up as fake vicars to spout #brexshit nonsense.
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Old 30th Nov 2018, 00:14
  #772 (permalink)  
 
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Well well, the debate about the debate about the debate seems to have been overshadowed by #VicarGate - apparently the BBC are failing to find enough #brexit supporters for their vox pops and panels and have had to resort to hiring actors dressed up as fake vicars to spout #brexshit nonsense.
Its probably because they are sick to the back teeth of being on panels made up of 1 leaver and 5 remainers. Ian Dale refused to do a Newsnight program a few months ago because he was the only leaver on a panel of 5. How often do we see that on Question time these days?
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Old 30th Nov 2018, 07:13
  #773 (permalink)  
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Latest poll result seems to indicate that, for all the heat and argument, the public is almost exactly were it was 2 years ago.

UK, Deltapoll poll: EU membership referendum

Remain: 48% (-2) Leave without deal: 52% (+2) +/- with regular Leave/Remain question

Field work: 26/11/18 – 27/11/18

Sample size: 1,013
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Old 30th Nov 2018, 07:31
  #774 (permalink)  
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Very interesting article in The Irish Times concerning keeping a totally open NI/Eire open border after Brexit - and it’s advantages for Eire......

https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/t...land-1.3711188
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Old 30th Nov 2018, 08:00
  #775 (permalink)  
 
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One of our biggest customers has stuggled for years to find enough HGV drivers - not just UK, but in Germany, France and Holland also.
You're right, but the blame can't just be laid at Poles, Lats. Lits and Slovaks "taking our jobs". Take a look at the drivers are artics on our roads, any roads, not just those in the UK, but across Europe. Most drivers are in the 50s and 60s, younger people don't want the job with the night out in sleeper cabs, not being able to go out with their mates on a Friday night and getting their hands dirty assisting with loading and unloading.

I beg to disagree about low skilled. I had the pleasure on a cruise of dining with a truck driver. Not low skilled or simple manual work. In many respects his rules, regulation and requirements bore comparison with a plane driver.
Again correct, but often not recognised in the wider population, nor I suspect, in government. I'm sure that if under new migration rules, there was a ranking of jobs, airline pilot would come way higher in the skills / responsibility scale than a "grubby" truck driver.

I'm a professional haulage contractor. I do this for 60+ hours per week. So sure, I'll wise up for once if you say so.
That's why I left the freight industry, too many hours, for too little pay and diddly squat respect from customers that largely treat the haulier like some sort of mess they've seen on the pavement. I'm sure the "experts" on this forum know better than you.
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Old 30th Nov 2018, 08:28
  #776 (permalink)  
 
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Dunno about wages reducing in haulage. Demand is certainly there. Ironically because of uncertainty around Brexit, warehousing is booming. On that side of things, I once ran a warehouse for a global retailer employing around 400 staff in pick/pack roles. That place increased wages at a similar rate to the rest of the industry over the past fifteen years I.e.fairly stagnant and slowly became staffed by Eastern Europeans.

So no reduction in salary but other factors displacing locals wanting to work in entry level roles. The lump labour fallacy has been around since the 1890's & is still punted today as a cause for society's ills. Having been right at the sharp end of employing large numbers of hourly paid manual workers, I don't believe in it for a minute. My experience is a significant people at that level of the workforce have unrealistic expectations of what's available for their skill set, attitude & experience. On more than one occasion I've interviewed a Bulgarian guy for a picking job who turned up in a suit & told me he'd take all the over time I could give him, followed by a local in a football kit wanting to know how many breaks he;d get in a day & could he smoke on site?
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Old 30th Nov 2018, 08:30
  #777 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by ATNotts View Post
diddly squat respect from customers that largely treat the haulier like some sort of mess they've seen on the pavement. I'm sure the "experts" on this forum know better than you.
I knew a guy who was an owner-driver - decided it was the most profitable thing he could do with his degree - but building site work rather than hauling containers.

This was before the days of Eddie Stobart and besuited drivers: when he turned up on a building site the foreman would stare right through him, ignoring this obviously useless middle class management type, and ask "well where's the ****ing driver then?".
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Old 30th Nov 2018, 09:57
  #778 (permalink)  
 
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Flipside of employing a bunch of Eastern Europeans, a pal of mine told me a tale of a dozen Polish drivers all piling into a van on Friday afternoon, waving him a cheery goodbye & saying they'd be back in a week as they decamped home for some national holiday or other. He was ringing round the agencies like a dervish after that.
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Old 30th Nov 2018, 10:38
  #779 (permalink)  
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On relative skill sets and risk/value, a pilot is in charge of a multi-million pound asset and the lives of hundreds of people. The pilot however doesn't load his aircraft, refuel and service it or park it without assistance.

A truck driver may be in charge of an asset and freight over a million pounds and does not need someone to park it. Should he have a crash on a motorway dozens might be killed or injured and there could be a significant economic effect from traffic disruption.

Now if the latter went to work in a white shirt and tie, wore a blazer with 4 stripes, and carried a briefcase . ..
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Old 30th Nov 2018, 16:09
  #780 (permalink)  
 
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A poll sample of 1013 is risible. A Channel4 survey of 20,000 found a 54/46 split in favour of Remain. Most of the swing was accounted for by those like me, non voters in the Referendum who now favour Remain
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