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UK Politics Hamsterwheel MkII

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UK Politics Hamsterwheel MkII

Old 6th May 2019, 11:20
  #7761 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Pontius Navigator View Post
ATNotts, 'the average voter' seemed confused with a double binary choice. Two Lab, two Con, two votes.

Can someone refresh me on the EU election? In our region we have 8 groups with 5 candidates and a single independent. Do we pick any 5 from 41 or we pick one group?

With the exception of the Brexit and UKIP groups, do the others have any incentive to leave the EU? No, thought not.
That's a very good question! As I recall it's party list system, so I assume that you place one vote for one party, and the seats are handed out in proportion to the votes cast. I may be wrong, and ought really google it. Tragedy is that the media, broadcast and print, do the electorate a major disservice in not explaining how the vote works to us simple people who generally can't get our heads around anything more sophisticated that FPTP. That's before explaining which grouping each of the UK parties would sit in in the EU parliament, and what those groupings stand for. As for the issues, well forget any sort of meaningful discussion on them!!
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Old 6th May 2019, 11:23
  #7762 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Sallyann1234 View Post
No, I do not think the EU would agree anything in the blink of an eye.
They might agree to something 'softer' if they got a binding treaty that that the rabid Brexiteers would go away and not keep demanding new terms or new referenda. Would that happen?

Edit: Perhaps the EU would be happy with a revision to Art. 50?
I don’t have the answer to either question, nor even reasonable speculation on my part.
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Old 6th May 2019, 11:24
  #7763 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by ATNotts View Post
That's a very good question! As I recall it's party list system, so I assume that you place one vote for one party, and the seats are handed out in proportion to the votes cast. I may be wrong, and ought really google it. Tragedy is that the media, broadcast and print, do the electorate a major disservice in not explaining how the vote works to us simple people who generally can't get our heads around anything more sophisticated that FPTP. That's before explaining which grouping each of the UK parties would sit in in the EU parliament, and what those groupings stand for. As for the issues, well forget any sort of meaningful discussion on them!!
Just googled it! Explainer below:-

The Voting System | Elections & MEPs | European Parliament Liaison Office in the United Kingdom
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Old 6th May 2019, 11:25
  #7764 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by ATNotts View Post
Rory Stewart said on Sky News this weekend that if a new Tory leader moved further towards a harder Brexit, then the party could easily lose 4m votes at the next general election Funny looking bloke, Stewart, and also sounds like your typical upper class twit that tends populate the Conservative party, but he talks sense, rather than dogma. I've liked him since he took on the job of Prisons Minister, as tends to talk straight and answer questions. Really hope he gets a decent shot at the Tory leadership election when it comes along.
Rory Stewart.

From the Guardian 3 May 19

Stewart leaves behind a failing prison system in which violence is at record levels and, according to the most recent prison watchdog report, is struggling to deal with a drugs crisis that is “out of control”.

Commons Select Committee April 19
The Government’s current approach to prison funding to accommodate growing population forecasts is inefficient, ineffective, and unsustainable in the medium or long-term, says the Justice Committee in a major new report published today.

BBC 17 Aug 18

Speaking to the BBC, Mr Stewart said: "I believe in the prison service, I believe in our prison offices, I believe this can be turned around."

"I want you to judge me on those results and I will resign if I don't succeed."


You could say his being promoted has enabled him to avoid keeping his word.


Rory Stewart apologises after making up Brexit stat

Rory Stewart has apologised after making up a Brexit statistic whilst on BBC Radio 5 Live.

Speaking to presenter Emma Barnett, he claimed 80% of the British public supported the prime minister’s Brexit deal.

Pressed by Emma as to where he had got the information, he said: “I’m producing a number to try to illustrate what I believe.”


He later added, “I totally apologise and I take that back”.


He is just another lying MP. There is no shortage.
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Old 6th May 2019, 11:35
  #7765 (permalink)  
 
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Speaking to presenter Emma Barnett, he claimed 80% of the British public supported the prime minister’s Brexit deal.

Pressed by Emma as to where he had got the information, he said: “I’m producing a number to try to illustrate what I believe.”


He later added, “I totally apologise and I take that back”.
80% backing something....producing a number to try to illustrate what I believe?? Sounds familiar, but in the context of the votes cast in the 2017 election, justifying Brexit in the eyes of Brexiteers!!!!!

At least he apologised and took it back, more than Johnson, JR-M and their rabble have ever done.
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Old 6th May 2019, 17:43
  #7766 (permalink)  
 
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Why would there be surprise at a Brexiteer peddling 'porkies? They constantly refer to a 'majority' in favour of leaving. That is only true of those who voted. Of those entitled to vote, the majority massively failed to vote for leaving. So, we have approximately 38% of UK voters trying to impose their wishes on the remaining 60+ % or, even worse 27% of the total population forcing the remainder to comply with their (minority) wishes. It is also, therefore, unsurprising that they are trying to cobble together any. sort of deal before the opposition (to Brexit) properly organises itself. Corbyn's input is of 'motor-cycle ashtray' value and, with minor exceptions, his associates, similarly. They keep on bleating on about the "voters are angry". Too (expletive deleted) right we are!!
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Old 6th May 2019, 17:52
  #7767 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Cornish Jack View Post
Why would there be surprise at a Brexiteer peddling 'porkies? They constantly refer to a 'majority' in favour of leaving. That is only true of those who voted. Of those entitled to vote, the majority massively failed to vote for leaving. So, we have approximately 38% of UK voters trying to impose their wishes on the remaining 60+ % or, even worse 27% of the total population forcing the remainder to comply with their (minority) wishes. It is also, therefore, unsurprising that they are trying to cobble together any. sort of deal before the opposition (to Brexit) properly organises itself. Corbyn's input is of 'motor-cycle ashtray' value and, with minor exceptions, his associates, similarly. They keep on bleating on about the "voters are angry". Too (expletive deleted) right we are!!
Just when I thought I'd read the dumbest post ever, you come along and shatter the illusion
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Old 6th May 2019, 18:07
  #7768 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Hyperdark View Post
Just when I thought I'd read the dumbest post ever, you come along and shatter the illusion
That particular set of maths and statistics has been posted here before and totally ignores the fact that no Government ever gets even 50% of those that bother to vote, let alone of those eligible, and only a fraction of the population. Despite this failure to get any sort of majority they usually get sufficient seats to form a Government.

Traditionally the Liberals are the most disadvantaged by the system though latterly UKIP has even fewer seats per vote. There are solutions but a referendum reject any change to FTP.

While accepting that majority in the political sense is not really a majority out is the way w work.
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Old 6th May 2019, 18:40
  #7769 (permalink)  
 
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I must admit to being a strong stayer but one thing this whole process has shown up is how hopelessly out of date Westminster with its robes rods and maces is . It has also brought out the real rabid right who really want to make 90% of the country worse off to protect themselves even though many who support the likes of the ERG traitors are likely to end up as the very worst off . Socialists t might well be inept and a bit hypocrital at times but they are not pure evil like the Tory hard right . Of course when you look at elft and right then you have to consider why there isnt a more centrist approach in British politics . Cameron Brexit aside was someone many labour supporters could live with just as Blair Iraq aside was someone many conservatives could live with. In both parties the tendency is not to try and work with the relatively like minded in the opposing party but to try and appease the hard left wing of the Labour party and the bring back slavery for anyone without a knighthood Tory right

We are almost at the point where a vote held three years ago in almost complete ignorance-on all sides- is still touted as relevant today. Thats probably the stupidest argument in the history of the world. If a week is along time in Politics three years is an aeon .

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Old 6th May 2019, 18:51
  #7770 (permalink)  
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PB, which is indeed a more powerful argument than trying to prove a 1.7m majority is not representative.

​​​​​​if there is another referendum I can't think of any different question except:

1. Rescind Art 50 and remain in EU

2. Leave EU with no deal.

The idea that we can chose options is ludicrous as the EU will not play ball.


​​​

Last edited by Pontius Navigator; 6th May 2019 at 19:05.
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Old 6th May 2019, 20:20
  #7771 (permalink)  
 
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" Just when I thought I'd read the dumbest post ever, you come along and shatter the illusion"
With a line of debating logic of that quality, there's a section of political opinion just aching to welcome you aboard - go for it! cf. Bullingdon Buffoon et al
PN - the fact that the figures were previously published does not, as far as I'm aware, invalidate them. They are Government (i.e. Civil Servant) audited so relatively trustworthy. As to the comparison with electoral results (in our benighted 'ragbag' version of democracy), GE results inflict themselves on the public for 5 years (at most) even with the present unbelievable collection of misplaced village clowns. ... this Brexit idiotic instability is intended to continue ad infinitum.
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Old 7th May 2019, 04:49
  #7772 (permalink)  
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As we know, the nation is about to be saved, ostensibly, by "I am the light, I am the resurrection .......I am Nigel Farage ! "..well Nige does consider himself to be the Divine Saviour after all.......

Unfortunately, for Nige, his latest quest for eternal glory seems to have omitted mentioning these little pearls of wisdom when rallying the UK electorate to squander a vote for his pristine new party.....

https://www.theguardian.com/politics...how-alex-jones

Besides which, the New World Order has long been established.......as any Cat will remind mere hoomans when the hooman forgets their place.
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Old 7th May 2019, 07:43
  #7773 (permalink)  
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Rory Stewart is a toady.
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Old 7th May 2019, 08:17
  #7774 (permalink)  
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Some great news for the economy...brewery profits set to soar in the very near future ! ( also applicable to wines and spirits )

A " one off" public holiday to celebrate would also prove popular ....

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-48182976
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Old 7th May 2019, 09:25
  #7775 (permalink)  
 
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Rory Stewart is a toady.
Out of interest, what makes you say that?
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Old 7th May 2019, 09:38
  #7776 (permalink)  
 
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You can find out who your MEP candidates are here
I'll be going to the hustings to listen to them all trying to justify their existence. It won't be a complete waste of time as there is a bar at the venue!
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Old 7th May 2019, 10:09
  #7777 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Pontius Navigator View Post
PB, which is indeed a more powerful argument than trying to prove a 1.7m majority is not representative.

​​​​​​if there is another referendum I can't think of any different question except:

1. Rescind Art 50 and remain in EU

2. Leave EU with no deal.

The idea that we can chose options is ludicrous as the EU will not play ball.


​​​
... and would you be happy with 50%+1 to win, or would you want see to some sort of threshold?
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Old 7th May 2019, 10:10
  #7778 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by LowNSlow View Post
You can find out who your MEP candidates are here
I'll be going to the hustings to listen to them all trying to justify their existence. It won't be a complete waste of time as there is a bar at the venue!
Just had a look for my area. Seven parties trying their luck, each with seven candidates.

Is there a kind of Hunger Games theme to this to get to the winner?
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Old 7th May 2019, 10:17
  #7779 (permalink)  
 
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We've got 8 parties plus 1 indy giving a total of 54 candidates!

I think I'll score them on dress sense first, the ability to keep their mouths shut when other people are talking second followed by how believable their spiel actually is!
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Old 7th May 2019, 10:57
  #7780 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by yellowtriumph View Post


... and would you be happy with 50%+1 to win, or would you want see to some sort of threshold?
Yes.

I was happy with 1.7m. CJ is correct in drawing a distinction between an election which can be overturned in 5 years and a referendum which is near permanent. A threshold could have been justified but as far as I know was never considered as Cameron just didn't think he could possibly lose.

Where I was supporting PB is that we are much better informed than we were before, but it is apparent that many are more firmly entrenched in our original views.

I think many ardent remainers here are deluding themselves that there will be a noticeable swing to remain. "My son can't vote, he's away at university.". " Oh, my husband could have got a postal vote? "

I predict that any new referendum would still be less than 80% turn out and probably nearer 70%.
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