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UK Politics Hamsterwheel MkII

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UK Politics Hamsterwheel MkII

Old 3rd May 2019, 19:39
  #7701 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Gertrude the Wombat View Post
Do you live in a safe seat? If so WTF do you expect? - it's called "first past the post".
That is defeatist. This election of all elections gave the chance to change the accepted order. That the number 2 Tory was a good 70 behind the first shows there was some dissent. Several said they knew nothing of the labour candidates so that suggests they lost a few votes. I think if a donkey had stood it could have given the others a kicking.
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Old 3rd May 2019, 19:42
  #7702 (permalink)  
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GTW, can you answer the PM? We are curious.
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Old 3rd May 2019, 19:50
  #7703 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Sallyann1234 View Post
I feel sorry for local councillors who have been working hard for their communities (there are some - I've met them) who have been thrown out because their parties in Westminster have messed up big time.
Such is the life of a councillor. It seems to be that most councillors, of all parties, lose their seats because of "them buggers in Westminster" rather than because of anything they've done wrong as councillors.
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Old 3rd May 2019, 19:51
  #7704 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Pontius Navigator View Post
That is defeatist.
Just trying to explain how things work, as not everybody knows the mechanics (why would they?).
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Old 3rd May 2019, 20:00
  #7705 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Pontius Navigator View Post
GTW, can you answer the PM? We are curious.
Done. (Hadn't noticed it until I saw this post.)
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Old 3rd May 2019, 20:31
  #7706 (permalink)  
 
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Old 3rd May 2019, 21:35
  #7707 (permalink)  
 
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In my area the were four choices on the ballot paper, Comservative, Labour, Liberal and Green Parties. Given that the district is fairly polarised between Conservative and Labour, the only way for the local electorate to send a message to the politicians is to vote for either the Liberal or Green Party, even though we may not agree with their particular policies. A further alternative is not to vote at all.

My point is that the number of votes cast for the Liberals and the Greens does not represent a shift in people's attitude towards Brexit. This is obviously the wishful interpretation being put on the reaults by the Liberal Party and the BBC. Nothing could be further from the truth. The leave supporters are more entrenched in their attitude to leave, now, without a deal, than ever before. Unfortunately for the remain supporters the mild winter has failed to kill of the required numbers of leavers to allow them to pursue their policies.

Had there been an option for UKIP or a Brexit Party, they would have won by a landslide. Come May 23rd, the EU Elections will prove this point.
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Old 3rd May 2019, 22:32
  #7708 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by G0ULI View Post
My point is that the number of votes cast for the Liberals and the Greens does not represent a shift in people's attitude towards Brexit.
We are aware of this rather bizarre wishful thinking amongst a small number of hardcore brexiters. We don't, of course, agree with it.
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Old 4th May 2019, 06:43
  #7709 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Pontius Navigator View Post
. I think if a donkey had stood it could have given the others a kicking.
That's quite a reasonable thought actually, given both Skegness and Cranwell are in Lincolnshire, there would be no shortage of candidates..

Here's a few from Wales enjoying a couple of days away from their usual sea side haunts, although to be fair to donkey's, they are intelligent animals so the comparison isn't entirely accurate.

But, credit where it's due. Treeza did actually manage two words in Welsh !......unlike one J.Redwood haplessly miming the Welsh National Anthem for example. We can only wonder how Treeza got to Llangollen however, you can bet she wasn't held up for a eternity at those ( rude word ) " T " junction traffic lights on the A5 for example.... like the rest of us...... and if she popped into the "Ponderosa " café at the top of Horseshoe Pass...unlikely because of the danger she would have met real people which isn't something that Treeza isn't exactly noted for enjoying. .

The sentiments expressed by the gentleman who also features in this clip, are, as the commentary states, applicable to many of us..... .

https://www.channel4.com/news/conser...ocal-elections
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Old 4th May 2019, 07:46
  #7710 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Gertrude the Wombat View Post
We are aware of this rather bizarre wishful thinking amongst a small number of hardcore brexiters. We don't, of course, agree with it.
OTOH I do.

It was quite clear that a number of voters, including those with many winters before them, were annoyed at the lack of candidates. It was probably the perfect time to stand as an Independent. You might not have won but would have garnered a few protest votes.

Regarding future intentions, I am still on the fence but no longer stradling. I just wish they would get on the with it.
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Old 4th May 2019, 08:44
  #7711 (permalink)  
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Having stood as a candidate I can assure you the mood on the doorstep was anger abiu5 th3 failure to implement Brexit and they incompetence of TM. The only real options on the ballot apart from Conservative were a Momentum dominated Labour ticket and the Greens and the vast majority of responses from identified long term Conservative voters were one of the following.

Remainers:

a. Cameron had ruined their lives and the country and they would never vote for the party again and were voting Green or abstaining.

b. TM’s deal was the best that be made in the circumstances and fury at both the rebels, and Labour, for voting against it and were voting Green or abstaining.

Leavers:

a. They would angrily vote for the party, but under protest, but would vote for the Brexit party at the EU elections.

b. They wouldn’t vote for the party again until they replaced TM and implemented Brexit.

c. They had been betrayed by all politicians and their voice ignored and would never vote again.

The ward in which I stood is a long term Labour stronghold where the usual breakdown is about 40% Labour, 30% Green and 20% Conservative. The result was the Conservative vote fell to 10% and the fight between Labour and Green was incredibly tight with just a handful of votes between the 3 candidates on each ticket, ending up split between them.

As as you will see, and as reflected across the country, there was not another Brexit supporting party for those disillusioned or disgusted with the Conservatives to vote for, so they voted Green or LibDem, who as always in such elections fought on local issues, or sat in their hands. So I am not convinced that the result can be read as a large swing in favour remain.

What I do believe is that the EU elections, where the Brexit party is standing, to be a more revealing result. And on my experience on the doorstep I would expect almost all leave voters, both Labour and Conservative, to switch almost en bloc to the Brexit party and for them to emerge as the largest winners, with the remain vote being distributed between the other parties, diluting their numbers and seats achieved.
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Old 4th May 2019, 09:10
  #7712 (permalink)  
 
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What I do believe is that the EU elections, where the Brexit party is standing, to be a more revealing result. And on my experience on the doorstep I would expect almost all leave voters, both Labour and Conservative, to switch almost en bloc to the Brexit party and for them to emerge as the largest winners,
That's me then, even though my MP has followed my wishes and those of his constituents, it's the party that has failed, so my vote will be for the Brexit party.
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Old 4th May 2019, 09:22
  #7713 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Pontius Navigator View Post
It was quite clear that a number of voters, including those with many winters before them, were annoyed at the lack of candidates.
Oh yes, that's certainly true - I've heard lots of people complaining that they only had Labour and Tory on the ballot, so there was no "remain" option, so they spoiled their ballot.

My response is simply to remind them that "politics is not a spectator sport", there's no "they" that does all this stuff, it's all done by ordinary people, and ask them will their name be on the ballot next year?
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Old 4th May 2019, 10:59
  #7714 (permalink)  
 
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What does the Brexit party actually stand for except leave the Eu quickly with no thought for the present of future-might as well call it the Kamikaze party .

In the local elections where I live the liberals would have won control if they contested a couple more wards, my council has been conservative forever and was the last 100% one party council in UK, now they have majority of one with a huge swing to Liberal even though as a local council they do a decent job, . Voted 50 50 in referendum with less than 1% majority for leave .

I am beginning to think that whether we leave the Eu or not-much more likely if we do leave that the Uk is finished as country of any consequence. -To most of the world we look like complete idiots for wanting to leave or completely incompetent for trying to leave. It show up our ridiculously outdated Parliament with its opposing benches wigs and robes and maces as country completely stuck in the past. Even worse it has spawned parties and people of the type our parents and grandparents fought against in WW2 , what on earth would they think of idiots and liars like Farage and Johnson and Rees Mogg edging us ever closure to right wing extremism and hiding behind the flags of so called patriotism when they are the traitors
very s
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Old 4th May 2019, 11:15
  #7715 (permalink)  
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Ask yourselves why people align themselves with national political parties?

If the motive is to 'govern' how the country is governed (whether favouring capitalism or socialism), does this automatically extend to local government?

What about Parish Councils?

I can understand the themes persisting when managing cities, but rural village management usually requires apolitical handling.
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Old 4th May 2019, 11:52
  #7716 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by G0ULI View Post
In my area the were four choices on the ballot paper, Comservative, Labour, Liberal and Green Parties. Given that the district is fairly polarised between Conservative and Labour, the only way for the local electorate to send a message to the politicians is to vote for either the Liberal or Green Party, even though we may not agree with their particular policies. A further alternative is not to vote at all.

My point is that the number of votes cast for the Liberals and the Greens does not represent a shift in people's attitude towards Brexit. This is obviously the wishful interpretation being put on the reaults by the Liberal Party and the BBC. Nothing could be further from the truth. The leave supporters are more entrenched in their attitude to leave, now, without a deal, than ever before. Unfortunately for the remain supporters the mild winter has failed to kill of the required numbers of leavers to allow them to pursue their policies.

Had there been an option for UKIP or a Brexit Party, they would have won by a landslide. Come May 23rd, the EU Elections will prove this point.
So why did UKIP lose so many seats?
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Old 4th May 2019, 13:27
  #7717 (permalink)  
 
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My point is that the number of votes cast for the Liberals and the Greens does not represent a shift in people's attitude towards Brexit.
No more or less so that the claim oft made by Brexiteers that 80% of people supported Brexit in the 2017 General Election on the grounds they supported parties who's manifestos included a commitment to Brexit.
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Old 4th May 2019, 14:17
  #7718 (permalink)  
 
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PN

Stradling's advice on "Customs of the Service" was usually sound, but on Brexit.....?
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Old 4th May 2019, 14:37
  #7719 (permalink)  
 
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Well I voted Labour for the first time in my life on Thursday. Liked the candidate, have real issues with the Conservative incumbent, and just wanted to throw a brick through the only available window . It's fair to say that all the swing voters that went to the LDs are a voice for remain. Ukip have become toxic and traditional conservative voters won't support them. There was one on the ballot here and I wouldn't consider it. If they had been like their 2016 version it would have been different. I think it is significant that there were 600 plus independent councillors added. These are votes that could have gone to the LDs but didn't. The EU elections will be much clearer.

The reduced support for Labour is clearer. In the north (Sunderland) it's frustrated brexiteers, in the south disgruntled remainers who want a second ballot ( to reverse 2016). Jeremy is in quite a bind there.

With the Conservatives, who knows. My sympathy for the leavers is to rewind back to pre-Maastrich, not to undo the 1970's vote. Can't see why a customs union doesn't do as close to that as we are going to get. I don't understand how people believe we can set up advantageous independent trade deals. Any trade deal with the EU will constrain what we can offer eg the USA. The thing lost with a customs union is a voice at the table but we will still be an important market for them.
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Old 4th May 2019, 14:51
  #7720 (permalink)  
 
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The smaller parties often do well in the local elections, especially when the voters are apathetic towards the ruling party in particular.
Anyone remember Sir David Steel's "Surge"? Never materialised did it.
Admittedly not helped by FPTP.

When they finally got a bit of power in 2010, they blew it spectacularly.
They could have really forced some changes through, but probably at best they restrained a few Tory initiatives before becoming irrelevant again.
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