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UK Politics Hamsterwheel MkII

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UK Politics Hamsterwheel MkII

Old 2nd Apr 2019, 23:13
  #7121 (permalink)  
 
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Sky reporting that any deal between Labour and May will be subject to a confirmatory referendum.
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Old 3rd Apr 2019, 07:08
  #7122 (permalink)  
 
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I think this is (another) massive miscalculation on the Prime Minister's part. It seems to me she is indeed putting herself before the country with the idea that she gets Labour to support her in an even weaker deal so that she can go with a "legacy" of delivering Brexit as she walks away. What tosh.

The idea of adding a customs union to the WA is not leaving the EU and is not honouring the referendum. As someone who voted to leave I would rather stay in than adopt this kind of pathetic attempt at leaving, where we would have all the rules and no influence.

I haven't changed my mind about the benefits of leaving, but I have concluded that there is no way that Parliament will support any kind of meaningful Brexit only some watered down non-version. Those Parliamentarians who want to reverse the Referendum have won through being united in their refusal to support anything that involves actually leaving, and the social political contract will suffer as a result of it. On this basis the interests of the country would be better served by staying in despite the attendant risks of their accelerating political union.

The PM has ignored what Leavers voted for, and the Conservative Party will pay the price at the GE that is inevitable as a result, and will also shoulder the blame for a disastrous Marxist Government that her failure will usher in.
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Old 3rd Apr 2019, 09:23
  #7123 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Groundbased View Post
The idea of adding a customs union to the WA is not leaving the EU and is not honouring the referendum. As someone who voted to leave I would rather stay in than adopt this kind of pathetic attempt at leaving, where we would have all the rules and no influence.
Originally Posted by Groundbased
The PM has ignored what Leavers voted for, and the Conservative Party will pay the price at the GE that is inevitable as a result, and will also shoulder the blame for a disastrous Marxist Government that her failure will usher in.
There lies the nub of the problem. There is no clear definition of what constitutes leaving the EU.

Studies since the referendum indicate that getting control over EU immigration and stopping further political integration were the 2 biggest influences on Leave voters. A Customs Union (not the current one) would probably involve some form of freedom of movement, but is an opportunity for the U.K. to rein in the current unrestricted version. More rigid implementation involving freedom of movement into a job, rather than freedom to move to look for a job, would bring the numbers down, whilst the reducing gap between the economies of the U.K. and Eastern Europe will also contribute.

If we leave the EU regardless of the closeness of the subsequent relationship, by definition we will not get any further political integration.

Unfortunately for Leave voters, their wishes have been hijacked by the ERG and the DUP who are both eager to cut all links to the EU as far as they can. As such they have blocked many options which would have satisfied a significant proportion of Leave voters, but it increasingly looks like they have shot themselves in the foot, and will end up with much closer ties than would have been the case had they been more pragmatic.
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Old 3rd Apr 2019, 09:43
  #7124 (permalink)  
 
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Can you define what you mean by the “current unrestricted version” of FOM?

Do you mean the existing one where at least some EU states have in place a limit on duration of stay if an individual (even the national of another EU state) hasn’t found employment and has no means of supporting themselves without recourse to state provided benefits?




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Old 3rd Apr 2019, 10:33
  #7125 (permalink)  
 
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There is no such thing as 'unrestricted FOM' within the EU; it's a fake thunderclap used by those on the far-right.

Every EU nation is free to expel nationals from other EU nations, if they fail to provide a living for themselves after a period of 3 months. If the UK has failed to enact that rule, that's on them and not the EU.

The biggest immigration issues facing the UK, however, is not of EU origin but rather from the far reaches of her former empire. The EU has absolutely no say over that, it's wholly in the hands of the UK.

Still, nothing spices up a referendum campaign like a healthy dose of old-fashioned xenophobia, wilful ignorance, outrageous lies and wild exaggerations. You guys must be so proud of your tabloids and politicians!
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Old 3rd Apr 2019, 10:46
  #7126 (permalink)  
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SMT Member, spot on. When it works the Government claims credit. When it doesn't, blame the EU.

And probably one reason why people stay is lack of ID cards.
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Old 3rd Apr 2019, 10:47
  #7127 (permalink)  
 
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Exactly SMT...The French rule was (last time I checked) that as a job seeking EU National you had 6 months to find work. It is also difficult to gain employment in certain even some quite trivial lines of work without the appropriate licences or certificates (much to the annoyance of some those who want to liberalise French business).

I’ll also add that as an EU national if you are applying for French citizenship or even simply a residency permit you are expected to produce evidence (job contracts, banks statements etc etc) dating back several years of your ability to support yourself and any dependents.

The fact that the UK has choses to operate in a different manner and has a perhaps more relaxed attitude to Freedom of Movement, employment legislation and provision of benefits has rarely if ever been down to “unrestricted” freedom of movement”, dictated by the EU, it has been down to U.K. domestic policy.
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Old 3rd Apr 2019, 11:23
  #7128 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Curious Pax View Post

Unfortunately for Leave voters, their wishes have been hijacked by the ERG and the DUP who are both eager to cut all links to the EU as far as they can. As such they have blocked many options which would have satisfied a significant proportion of Leave voters, but it increasingly looks like they have shot themselves in the foot, and will end up with much closer ties than would have been the case had they been more pragmatic.
I don't disagree with that, but I would argue that the only other option that was available, May's deal, was voted down either by those who just don't want to leave the EU and those operating for political reasons. I would far rather that these people were honest about their actual intention, it would at least restore some degree of integrity to the process.
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Old 3rd Apr 2019, 11:26
  #7129 (permalink)  
 
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Those who are familiar with my posts will know my thoughts on Jeremy Corbyn. However this video of soldiers using a picture of him for target practice is disgraceful. Coming as it does at a time of high emotions and potential attacks on MP's it is especially bad. Those involved are easily identifiable and in my opinion should be drummed out of the British Army.
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Old 3rd Apr 2019, 11:32
  #7130 (permalink)  
 
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It's nothing just a few grunts letting off steam, a mere distraction, I'm more disgruntled with the fact our consistently poor excuse for national news reporting is bringing it up at this time simply to stir the pot
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Old 3rd Apr 2019, 11:36
  #7131 (permalink)  
 
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Conversely one could argue that doing at this time has been done to stir the pot. It would make no difference to my opinion btw if the target had been Boris, Francois or the saintly Jacob.
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Old 3rd Apr 2019, 12:18
  #7132 (permalink)  
 
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Back to the matter in hand:
Listening to the exchanges currently being voiced so vociferously across the floor of the Commons, I find it near impossible that this afternoons meeting of leaders will achieve anything.
It is almost as if Corbyn has designed his questions to get Tess's back up and it's working (Ops Normal of course in normal times, but for this day you would think that the 2 combatants might at least try to retain some cool)

Piss up-brewery, comes to mind
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Old 3rd Apr 2019, 12:26
  #7133 (permalink)  
 
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While todays newspapers implore Corbyn to put country firt-ha ha ha coming from the Tories who have done the exact opposite the past 5 years or more and comparing the PM to Houdini whining about snowflake remainers and how its treas on not to want to have a blue passport a quick look at a front page , third lead. article in the New York Times.

Entitled , for Business Brexit has already happened, it goes on to say how thousands of very high paying jobs and people have been moved to continental Europe along with a trillion Dollars in assets because of Brexit and that as Bruce Springsteen sung 'the foreman said these jobs are going boys and they aint coming back, to my home town'.

Bad as that is it then goes on to cover the reputational damage to the UK , as they put it a country that is unfriendly to business and cannot be trusted and which reneges on promises and deals with big business and other nations.

Still want to leave, can you come up with a single worthwhile reason to other than whine -we had a referendum three years ago longer than the time between many elections . something you can refelct on while on the dole in Middlesborough or waiting a year for a minor op in Shrewsbury . You were told at the time it was economic suicide but no Boris knew better than all those economists and bankers and the Head of the BoE and CBI and the Chamers of Commerce didnt he.

Oh i forgot take back control -and give it to the UK parliament the laughing stock of the world and the conservative party who put themselves before country (as parties always do) in having a referendum and then lying through their teeth for almost thre years to cover up the fact they achieved nothing at all in terms of trade deals, EU relationships, and that these experts that we all had enough of , thank you Michael Gove were pretty much right after all , and to cover up the funnelling of Russian money into t e leave campaign .

Was it all worth it , answers from Sunderland and Swindon especially welcome

e
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Old 3rd Apr 2019, 12:30
  #7134 (permalink)  
 
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Effluent man, yours id s apoint that goes to the heart of the matter, little if anything factual in the mainstream Uk print media since the referendum was announced and some papers , Mail and Express especially have sunk to levels of reporting that Goebels would be ashamed of ( although they have used his words often enough) . I am not a Corbyn fan but incidents like this make us look like a country that reflects the drunken yob culture we adopted .
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Old 3rd Apr 2019, 16:09
  #7135 (permalink)  
 
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Can you define what you mean by the “current unrestricted version” of FOM?
Perhaps I should have been more specific. As other posters have suggested, the way the U.K. has chosen to implement FoM has been a lot less restrictive than it could have been. Whether that would have changed much in practise I don’t know, but the option was already there.
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Old 3rd Apr 2019, 17:56
  #7136 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by pax britanica View Post
Effluent man, yours id s apoint that goes to the heart of the matter, little if anything factual in the mainstream Uk print media since the referendum was announced and some papers , Mail and Express especially have sunk to levels of reporting that Goebels would be ashamed of ( although they have used his words often enough) . I am not a Corbyn fan but incidents like this make us look like a country that reflects the drunken yob culture we adopted .
Discussing this with a friend this afternoon and he expressed the view "It's servicemen, it's just what they are like." This said as a defence mind you. I do feel that we are entitled to expect a higher standard of behaviour than we would accept from drunken yobs in a bar. It's easy to understand how fifty years ago their grandfathers would have been mowing down unarmed
​​​​​​​Irishmen.
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Old 3rd Apr 2019, 18:28
  #7137 (permalink)  
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That will be the country where Labour politicians have gleefully attended bonfires burning effigies of Margaret Thatcher and parties celebrating the anniversary of her death?

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Old 3rd Apr 2019, 18:29
  #7138 (permalink)  
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Ohhh!!!! The horror!!!! The fear!!


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Old 3rd Apr 2019, 18:39
  #7139 (permalink)  
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There are similar restrictions of imports from outside the EU. Clearly once you cannot take a pork pie out you will not be able to bring Brussels Pate in.
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Old 3rd Apr 2019, 18:56
  #7140 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Effluent Man View Post


Discussing this with a friend this afternoon and he expressed the view "It's servicemen, it's just what they are like." This said as a defence mind you. I do feel that we are entitled to expect a higher standard of behaviour than we would accept from drunken yobs in a bar. It's easy to understand how fifty years ago their grandfathers would have been mowing down unarmed
​​​​​​​Irishmen.
I spent around 37 years working with people in the armed services. One thing that was noticeable was that the majority (but not all) tended to be a bit right wing. Jokes about Labour politicians were pretty normal, and often far from being politically correct. Far worse things were said and done with reference to Michael Foot, and Tony Blair, than a bit of target practice using an image of Jeremy Corbyn.

I don't condone their behaviour at all, in fact I'm pretty surprised that they were allowed to get away with it at all in this day and age, but I can't say that I'm surprised. I can remember a crew room where the dart board had a small photo of Tony Blair in the centre, and no one seemed to have any problem with trying hard to get a dart right between his eyes. In the interest of balance, I can also remember sitting in a pub after the sinking of the Belgrano, with a lot of very mixed views being expressed by serving RN friends about the decision to torpedo a 44 year old ship, that wasn't really a significant risk to the Task Force. There were solemn toasts that evening to the Argentinian sailors that lost their lives.
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