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UK Politics Hamsterwheel MkII

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UK Politics Hamsterwheel MkII

Old 26th Mar 2019, 10:22
  #6861 (permalink)  
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
 
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In current UK Law, what is the date that we leave the EU?
It’s 12th April. EU law has supremacy over UK law.

https://publiclawforeveryone.com/201...legal-reality/

If the change to the date in the WA is not made by Friday it just means the UK is in breach of it’ international obligations and massive problems in the courts as the enabling UK legislation for EU regulations will no longer hold legal force.

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Old 26th Mar 2019, 10:55
  #6862 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by The Nip View Post


So only sane MPs and people don't want BREXIT?

Another poster who can't resist more insults of people who think differently.

And you wonder why this thread is mainly populated by a few posters?

Is it sane to take a course that will increase unemployment, potentially damage health care, and perhaps least critical make travel for the general population (be it on the M20 or crossing borders) more difficult and expensive? Perhaps you believe it is. If so it is perfectly sane to leap off the Brexit cliff edge.

It might I suppose have been better to substitute the word pragmatic for sane in my original posting.
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Old 26th Mar 2019, 11:00
  #6863 (permalink)  
 
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Yet more fear factor.
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Old 26th Mar 2019, 11:02
  #6864 (permalink)  
 
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This seems to be doing the rounds - apologies if it has been posted previously.
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Old 26th Mar 2019, 11:03
  #6865 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by jindabyne View Post
Yet more fear factor.
Remember the 800,000 job losses that a 'Leave' vote would cause? And the need for an 'Emergency Budget'

Yawn!
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Old 26th Mar 2019, 11:06
  #6866 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by goofer3 View Post
And who is going to decide what side the votes should go to, perhaps we would need another vote to decide that. Perhaps also a vote to decide who will decide.
State at the outset that all non voters will count as status quo or set the leave bar at 60%.

If you didn't vote but support leave you might just GOYA and vote.
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Old 26th Mar 2019, 11:14
  #6867 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by ATNotts View Post
Is it sane to take a course that will increase unemployment, potentially damage health care, and perhaps least critical make travel for the general population (be it on the M20 or crossing borders) more difficult and expensive? Perhaps you believe it is. If so it is perfectly sane to leap off the Brexit cliff edge.

It might I suppose have been better to substitute the word pragmatic for sane in my original posting.
You have no proof at all that any of that will happen. I’m beginning to think it’s wishful thinking from some people. To quote a well known sith lord “ I find your lack of faith ( in the British people ) disturbing”. What on earth has happened to us that we feel so inadequate as not to believe we can prosper without the EU overseeing everything we do? What have we become?
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Old 26th Mar 2019, 11:19
  #6868 (permalink)  
 
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Jindabyne

Don't know if that's accurate or fake news, but I've no reason to doubt it.

The question is, would that still be the case today having had nigh on 3 years of indecision, mismanagement and now a much clearer picture of what Brexit really means.

I have met small numbers of people who have said that they would change their vote from leave to remain, but none that have said they have switched the other way. By no means a scientific study, just what I've gleaned through talking casually to people randomly. Generally it is they, rather than I who ever mention Brexit. I tend to try and steer clear of it when working!

If there were a new referendum I wouldn't put any money on the result changing, though I would very much like it to be different, and I really don't know what Brexiteers are so frightened about. Getting public approval for the exit deal, whatever it finally turns out to be, would bring the country together better than politicians talking across each other and spouting all the mantras we come to know and love / loathe (delete which not applicable). Running a new simplistic remain / leave vote would be a total waste of time, non productive and divisive.
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Old 26th Mar 2019, 11:23
  #6869 (permalink)  
 
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The referendum was held three years ago- there is no reason not to have one now at all-in fact if anyone has reas the small print it made it clear that there was along process under article 50 so they have nothign to comlain about. And of course democracy doesnt include barefaced liwes and taking money froma potentially hostile foreign power to fund the campaign.

BUT more to the point , I read today that Michael Gove is fave for next PM , well clearly a thousand times better than BJ and a million times better than R-M, and indded he is my MP. However he also introduced the academy process for schools and incentivised them to 'pursue that status. Now I have no doubt that he was genuine in his feelings of getting better and more basic standards of English and maths and education in general.

However what happened in practice, many academies became run by trusts whose aim was to make money legally or illegally as demonstrated by recent events ast a local school, in his constituency-of very strong rumours of misconduct at another in same area and graphically by panorama last night. So MG isnt exactly a superstar as a minister and is frankly a bit naive with all the various problems and loss of public money privatisation has generally wrought.

Of course fervently believing in something without fully understanding the implications could be applied to the major issue in UK politics right now . And one has to question the sanity of anyone who wants to be the next PM , I think reverse Russian roulette is more the metaphor than poisoned chalice -although both are French words and may soon be banned in favour of good old English vocabulary, damn that foreign origins too
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Old 26th Mar 2019, 11:24
  #6870 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by ATNotts View Post
Jindabyne

Don't know if that's accurate or fake news, but I've no reason to doubt it.

The question is, would that still be the case today having had nigh on 3 years of indecision, mismanagement and now a much clearer picture of what Brexit really means.

I have met small numbers of people who have said that they would change their vote from leave to remain, but none that have said they have switched the other way. By no means a scientific study, just what I've gleaned through talking casually to people randomly. Generally it is they, rather than I who ever mention Brexit. I tend to try and steer clear of it when working!

If there were a new referendum I wouldn't put any money on the result changing, though I would very much like it to be different, and I really don't know what Brexiteers are so frightened about. Getting public approval for the exit deal, whatever it finally turns out to be, would bring the country together better than politicians talking across each other and spouting all the mantras we come to know and love / loathe (delete which not applicable). Running a new simplistic remain / leave vote would be a total waste of time, non productive and divisive.
So the establishment has a 3 year run up to thwart the process, pile on the project fear, and then crosses its fingers they've done enough to persuade "floaters" to back Remain....

Is that really your idea of 21st Century Democracy?
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Old 26th Mar 2019, 11:32
  #6871 (permalink)  
 
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Anyone worrying about driving in the EU after Brexit - I had this nice email form my insurance company today, at least some companies are now making plans. No fuss or bother involved except for being a bit more organised (i.e give a few weeks notice).


"Whilst uncertainty remains on whether the UK leaves the European Union without a Withdrawal Agreement (a 'no-deal Brexit') on 29th March, if they do, UK motor insurance customers driving in the European Economic Area, Andorra, Serbia, and Switzerland will need physical proof of motor insurance when they travel. This is called a Green Card.We have now developed a smooth and seamless process for you to obtain a Green Card if you are planning on driving in the European Union on or after 29th March 2019.We will not charge you for this Green Card and it can be obtained by following the steps below:
  • Login to your My Account page
  • Select ‘Request Green Card’ from the My Account homepage
  • Follow the on-screen instructions
Please be aware that there is no digital version available, a physical Green Card is the only valid format.Your request will be processed within 24 hours of receipt and sent to you in the post the next working day, first class. We recommend requesting your Green Card up to 4 weeks before you travel.
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Old 26th Mar 2019, 11:38
  #6872 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by andrewn View Post
So the establishment has a 3 year run up to thwart the process, pile on the project fear, and then crosses its fingers they've done enough to persuade "floaters" to back Remain....

Is that really your idea of 21st Century Democracy?
So you believe that to railroad what might be an unpopular deal through parliament is more democratic than to allow the public to decide based on FACTS rather than on promises, whether they wish to take the deal offered to withdraw Art.50?

Trouble with some Brexiteers is that they believe that democracy ended with the close of the polls on 23rd June 2016. That may well prove to be the case, but the UK will remain a divided nation for a deal longer if it is, whereas validating or rejecting the agreement through referendum may serve to heal those divisions more easily.
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Old 26th Mar 2019, 11:40
  #6873 (permalink)  
 
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Over here your Insurance Certificate IS the green card! No separate certificate. UK-based insurers have been milking that one for decades!
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Old 26th Mar 2019, 11:41
  #6874 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Sprogget View Post
A green card has always been a requirement afaik. International driving permits are the actual change & you may need more than one depending on where you're going. And EHIC equalling health insurance and proof of subsistence. Still, that's in no way a retrograde step, eh?
My policy (currently) has the green card wording in several languages printed on the insurance certificate and that proved more than adequate the last time a French police officer stopped me for a roadside check in Calais. So, to be pedantic, the actual green card isn't currently a requirement in practice, the declaration on the insurance certificate is.
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Old 26th Mar 2019, 12:03
  #6875 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by ATNotts View Post
So you believe that to railroad what might be an unpopular deal through parliament is more democratic than to allow the public to decide based on FACTS rather than on promises, whether they wish to take the deal offered to withdraw Art.50?

Trouble with some Brexiteers is that they believe that democracy ended with the close of the polls on 23rd June 2016. That may well prove to be the case, but the UK will remain a divided nation for a deal longer if it is, whereas validating or rejecting the agreement through referendum may serve to heal those divisions more easily.
Unpopular deal with whom - the people or parliament? I imagine for most Leavers it ticks enough boxes, at least to get us started with. For Parliament then there's no "deal" those muppets are interested in, all they want to do is overturn the Leave result!

As for a second referendum then that's a crazy concept, frankly, that doesnt work on any level. No-one will be able to agree on the question(s), it just prolongs the agony for months, if not years - the majority of sane people do not want that I am sure. If Remain were to win this time then what's to stop a best out of 3? At what point do you decide everybody is in receipt of all the facts. "Facts" have a habit of changing based on events. What kind of precedent does it set for ScotRef2, or any other country, region, group that has an issue with a democratic result not going their way? You are opening a massive can of worms with that one, all in the name of (hopefully) clinging on to EU membership. Not worth it in my opinion.
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Old 26th Mar 2019, 12:23
  #6876 (permalink)  
 
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What kind of precedent does it set for ScotRef2, or any other country, region, group that has an issue with a democratic result not going their way? You are opening a massive can of worms with that one, all in the name of (hopefully) clinging on to EU membership. Not worth it in my opinion.
That extremist Brexiteers hard / no deal Brexit will provide the catalyst for a Scotref2 (3 in point of fact!), and likely "Ulsteref1". The can of worms was opened by Cameron and his EU referendum; and one unnecessarily opened as a means to retain unity within the Tory party (failed abjectly) and destroy UKIP - marginal success there. Pandora's box was opened then, it can't easily be closed.
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Old 26th Mar 2019, 12:26
  #6877 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by ATNotts View Post
Jindabyne

If there were a new referendum I wouldn't put any money on the result changing, though I would very much like it to be different, and I really don't know what Brexiteers are so frightened about. Getting public approval for the exit deal, whatever it finally turns out to be, would bring the country together better than politicians talking across each other and spouting all the mantras we come to know and love / loathe (delete which not applicable). Running a new simplistic remain / leave vote would be a total waste of time, non productive and divisive.
I think the Remain focused MPs intend to mitigate the risk of another "Leave" vote in a second referendum by not having one and going straight for a revocation of ART 50. Of all the possible outcomes I think this one is the worst possible from a perspective of democracy. You asked us to vote, you told us you would implement our decision, you don't like our decision so you are unilaterally deciding to remain. Not good at all. It also begs the questions as to why, if so many of our MPs were desparate for cross party consensus two years ago, that they voted to enact Art 50 by a majority of 384.
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Old 26th Mar 2019, 12:36
  #6878 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Pontius Navigator View Post
State at the outset that all non voters will count as status quo or set the leave bar at 60%.

If you didn't vote but support leave you might just GOYA and vote.

Why ??

Why not set the Remain vote at 60% - it is them, after all, who are trying to overturn a previous result on precisely the same question / subject.




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Old 26th Mar 2019, 12:39
  #6879 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Groundbased View Post
I think the Remain focused MPs intend to mitigate the risk of another "Leave" vote in a second referendum by not having one and going straight for a revocation of ART 50. Of all the possible outcomes I think this one is the worst possible from a perspective of democracy. You asked us to vote, you told us you would implement our decision, you don't like our decision so you are unilaterally deciding to remain. Not good at all. It also begs the questions as to why, if so many of our MPs were desparate for cross party consensus two years ago, that they voted to enact Art 50 by a majority of 384.
They wouldn't have the support to do that, that is as extremist as the no deal crash out.

The only way to revoke Art.50 is through a referendum. Problem is that neither side can be sure of winning, so some on both side are running scared of a new public vote. You really have to ask why like a bunch of lemmings they all voted to invoke Art.50, with no plan. Perhaps with hindsight that was the second most stupid decision, after deciding to hold the referendum in the first place, and offering up such an open ended binary question in it.

History will not look kindly on our government, or lack of it, since 2015.
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Old 26th Mar 2019, 12:41
  #6880 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by ATNotts View Post
That extremist Brexiteers hard / no deal Brexit will provide the catalyst for a Scotref2 (3 in point of fact!), and likely "Ulsteref1". The can of worms was opened by Cameron and his EU referendum; and one unnecessarily opened as a means to retain unity within the Tory party (failed abjectly) and destroy UKIP - marginal success there. Pandora's box was opened then, it can't easily be closed.

The fact that Cameron had to do it to prevent UKIP should have been a signal to everyone that the mood in Enland, if not in Scotland, Wales and N Ireland, was to leave the EU.

But as always. the Political Class in Westminster and Brussels thought they knew better than the peasants.


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