Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > PPRuNe Social > Jet Blast
Reload this Page >

UK Politics Hamsterwheel MkII

Jet Blast Topics that don't fit the other forums. Rules of Engagement apply.

UK Politics Hamsterwheel MkII

Old 20th Mar 2019, 17:04
  #6501 (permalink)  
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Peripatetic
Posts: 9,775

ORAC is offline  
Old 20th Mar 2019, 17:28
  #6502 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: mids
Age: 54
Posts: 0
And the remain MP's will vote it down again because they think that the only option will be to cancel Art 50 if they do.

That's if they even get to vote on it.
tescoapp is offline  
Old 20th Mar 2019, 18:18
  #6503 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: se england
Posts: 1,121
Hyers54

Well if you live in France the collapse of the UK economy wont bother you will it. And I am sorry but the lies on the remain side were just that lies and they were amplified by the Murdoch Media and the Mail - I do not deny there were an exaggeration though.
Of course because we voted to leave UK influence was not that great but I strongly take issue with you otherwise. Uk was often a powerful coalescing force for countries like the Nordics and Netherlands and had we not done so we would be in a very strong position now with Macron having domestic problems and a new German chancellor we would obviously be in a very strong position.
There is no need to be an apologist for the Eu over anything-it has done many good things for the UK and going forward the Eu has a voice about 5 times as powerful as the UK alone-in fact after the ridiculous mess we have made of handling it we have even less respect going forward.
Also I w ould contend that while a week is along time in politics three years is an aeon in politics and to expect the same vote when people have seen loads of data and alot of real concrete developments a vote now would be very unlikely to have the same result. three years is almost the average lifetime of British parliament and you would get nowhere sayiong because we voted labour three eyars ago we would still vote labour three years later
Sadly it comes down to one of those how you feel issues I am afraid I dont like cheating and the referendum was badly flawed and too many high profile supporters are the kind of people who give the UK a bad name and are only in it for themselves. Take the ERG all middle age well of to rich white men, not remotely representative of UK2019

I also dont like deceit and lot of people who voted leave are going to be the casualties of leaving and the increasing right wing Tory government that will follow it as they have already ditched TM. It will bring us closer to a really nasty America. Privatised health services poor regulatory standards on every industry just money money money . (Americans are nice people but America is nasty country) and thats the last thing we want-we are Europeans by birth and ancestry. perhaps more than any country in Europe being an amalgam of French German Celtic and Scandi.
And on a purely personal level I dont like the fact that my children have both left the UK and seeking in one case and obtained in the other permanent residency so i will admit to being biased.
pax britanica is offline  
Old 20th Mar 2019, 18:23
  #6504 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: se england
Posts: 1,121
As to bad regulation in Uk- PPi, freehold fraud, tax enforcement and laxity allowing all kinds of offshore evasion, tolerance of dodgy colonial jurisdictions , Caymans Bermuda BVI, Gib etc etc etc, regulation of railways, utilities , crooked directors stealing pensions-shall I go on?
pax britanica is offline  
Old 20th Mar 2019, 20:28
  #6505 (permalink)  
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Peripatetic
Posts: 9,775
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/b...tusk-d26j6tvlh

Brexit: MPs must pass May’s deal or crash out next week, says Tusk

MPs must pass Theresa May’s Brexit deal or face a no-deal Brexit next Friday, Donald Tusk has warned.

In a dramatic gambit which raises the risk of the UK leaving the EU without a deal, the European Council president said that the short delay to Brexit requested by Mrs May this morning was only available if her deal had been agreed. Mr Tusk pointedly did not mention the possibility of a long Brexit extension, and said that if the prime minister’s deal had not been passed by the end of next week then he would “not hesitate” to call an extraordinary summit of EU leaders.

After talks this week with European leaders including Angela Merkel and President Macron of France, Mr Tusk rejected Mrs May’s request for an unconditional Brexit delay until the end of June. “In the light of the consultations that I have conducted over the past days I believe that a short extension will be possible but to be conditional on a positive vote on the withdrawal agreement in the House of Commons,” he said.

Because of the failure of the Commons to ratify the withdrawal agreement, the EU will not agree to an extension at its summit tomorrow but will create a legal framework allowing an automatic “technical” delay if MPs vote it through. If the Commons fails to back the deal then EU leaders will hold an emergency summit late next week, possibly even on Brexit day itself.....

European ambassadors said that the choice for Britain at such an emergency summit would be a no-deal Brexit and economic chaos, or a long delay to Brexit on the condition that the UK holds elections to the European parliament and a general election or second referendum.......





ORAC is offline  
Old 20th Mar 2019, 21:02
  #6506 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: East Sussex
Posts: 423
When Parliament ducked the issue of leaving the EU and passed it to the people, the result was a democratic majority to Leave.
We then had a General Election which SHOULD have been fought solely on Brexit, allowing for different opinions to form a consensus as to what the Leave terms would be from the UK.

The Bexit "Deal" is the one the EU want us to take, with the backstop trap.
MP's should not be voting for their own version of Brexit, but follow the result in their constituencies, so a Leave majority means that MP HAS to vote for Leave, and a Remain constituency has its MP vote to Remain NO MATTER WHAT their personal preferences may be.

For 1,000 days our MP's have made buffoons of themselves and disgraced this Country by personal antics instead of uniting as if in wartime, to produce the best deal for the UK.

Instead we face the humiliation of asking for an extension to the "red line" date of 29 March.
The EU can ow twist the UK round and round and still not remove the backstop issue.
So, will Westminster ever get a majority for the EU Brexit terms?

and what if France and Germany force the UK to continue bankrolling the EU for 5 years or more as the price of Yes? Spain wants Gibraltar, Greece and Italy are almost bankrupt and they may even force us to agree delaying immigration controls indefinitely.

So, crash out on 29 March and PLEASE put an end to this misery by immediately cancelling any further payments to the EU after 23:01 on 29 March.

We'll see if the money was the real issue or not, and maybe just get a little pride back by forcing the EU to get more from those left..
Icare9 is offline  
Old 20th Mar 2019, 21:04
  #6507 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Manchester, England
Age: 53
Posts: 804
So, May makes an supposedly important address to the nation. And says - not my fault guv, it’s them MPs and the Speaker who won’t do what I tell them. As unimpressive leadership as ever.

Not that Corbyn is any better. At a time of national crisis he decides to have a hissy fit and walk out of the opposition leaders’ meeting with the PM because Chukka Umuna is there. I was going to compare him to a stroppy teenager, but that would be unfair to all teenagers!

Curious Pax is offline  
Old 20th Mar 2019, 22:25
  #6508 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Looking for the signals square at LHR
Posts: 166
Originally Posted by ChrisVJ View Post
There was a time for about twenty years after WW11 that I believed Great Britain to be one of the most civilized countries in the world. For the last fifty years I have wondered, philosophically, if being one of the most civilized countries meant participating gracefully and without rancour in one's own demise. Giving up all the privilege for which one's ancestors fought so hard in exchange for the politically correct gratification of watching it given to the less privileged who despised you for doing so.
Sadly, that is a pretty fair measure of what has happened and what we have become. It is even sadder that the Commonwealth countries who contributed so readily to the support of what then fondly was regarded as the "Mother Country", have had to witness our self-inflicted decline of the last half-century. They must now wonder why the hell they bothered - the sacrifices of the Canadians were particularly noteworthy. I can imagine nothing more shameful, but then I was brought up in a different world, the mores of which today are alien to most.
Gipsy Queen is offline  
Old 20th Mar 2019, 22:37
  #6509 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Москва/Ташкент
Age: 49
Posts: 781
So, May makes an supposedly important address to the nation. And says - not my fault guv, it’s them MPs and the Speaker who won’t do what I tell them. As unimpressive leadership as ever.
She has a point mind you (much as I have always disliked the Tories) - she got the best deal she could from the EU (they wouldn't budge another inch) and it is continually rejected... mind you giving Arlene a say in the matter surely hasn't helped things.. if not downright turned them disastrous.

If there is a hard Brexit, the DUP won't shed any tears (although their constituents might) - rather than Mays deal they'd quite happily crash out.
flash8 is offline  
Old 20th Mar 2019, 22:46
  #6510 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Sunny Sussex
Posts: 778
I'm afraid she doesn't have a point. She's invested huge amounts of time & effort attempting to sideline Parliament & when they assert themselves, which by the way, is them doing their job, she blames them. The very people she needs to win over. I'm happy to remind people of the PM's record in democratic honesty.

Originally Posted by Parapunter View Post

but in this parliament, a different kind of sovereignty has established itself. One where a rank incompetent has cast herself as the sole custodian of that will yet what that actually meant has changed from week to week, sometimes from day to day. No transition, then transition. No deal is better than a bad deal, then it isn't. No extension, then extension. They can't see how the classic authoritarian morphs the will of the people into her & only her will.

Incredibly, given the political precipice she stands on, she abused parliament at every turn. She tried to deny it a vote on triggering article 50, stuffed the withdrawal bill full of statutory instruments, giving ministers huge powers, attempted to block amendments to no deal proposals, and for fear of losing opposition day motions, pretended they weren't happening, refusing to take part.

She refused to publish Government advice on the backstop & when parliament demanded it, tried to ignore the house, leading to the first government being found in contempt in history, a major humiliation & unbelievably, something that didn't cause her resignation. She allowed the house to waste five days debating her withdrawal act then pulled it when she feared losing it & presented it again & then again until the speaker intervened.

.
Parapunter is offline  
Old 20th Mar 2019, 22:50
  #6511 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Cambridge, England, EU
Posts: 3,398
Originally Posted by DON T View Post
but of course we will get another 650 numpties in their place
Only if you vote for them.
Gertrude the Wombat is offline  
Old 20th Mar 2019, 23:08
  #6512 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Currently within the EU
Posts: 315
Originally Posted by Parapunter View Post
I'm afraid she doesn't have a point. She's invested huge amounts of time & effort attempting to sideline Parliament & when they assert themselves, which by the way, is them doing their job, she blames them. The very people she needs to win over. I'm happy to remind people of the PM's record in democratic honesty.
Let us not forget that she supported Remain, but was content to change to Leave when given the opportunity to become PM.
Sallyann1234 is offline  
Old 20th Mar 2019, 23:09
  #6513 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 1999
Location: Manchester, UK
Posts: 1,878
She most certainly does have a point when she says we are totally sick of Brexit. If by “assert themselves” you mean using every last line of legal and procedural fine print to delay and obstruct then you’re absolutely right.
ShotOne is offline  
Old 20th Mar 2019, 23:12
  #6514 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Sunny Sussex
Posts: 778
By the way, the core message in that speech that only she can lead the people against a venal parliament is sinister, despotic stuff.
Parapunter is offline  
Old 20th Mar 2019, 23:15
  #6515 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Sunny Sussex
Posts: 778
Originally Posted by ShotOne View Post
She most certainly does have a point when she says we are totally sick of Brexit. If by “assert themselves” you mean using every last line of legal and procedural fine print to delay and obstruct then you’re absolutely right.
Clearly I don't mean that & moreover anyone who considers the current farce to be the end in sight has failed to understand anything about it.
Parapunter is offline  
Old 20th Mar 2019, 23:16
  #6516 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Москва/Ташкент
Age: 49
Posts: 781
It seems NO planning has been done for a hard Brexit (beyond a couple of dodgy ferry contracts), surely that borders on criminal negligence?
flash8 is offline  
Old 20th Mar 2019, 23:28
  #6517 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Looking for the signals square at LHR
Posts: 166
Originally Posted by Parapunter View Post
Clearly I don't mean that & moreover anyone who considers the current farce to be the end in sight has failed to understand anything about it.
I'm afraid that on this, you are correct.

As an exercise in self-delusion and denial, here is an excellent example from Theresa May sent as a letter to members of the Conservative Party;

Nearly three years have passed since the public voted to leave the European Union.

It was the biggest democratic exercise in our country’s history.

I came to office on a promise to deliver on that verdict.

In March 2017, I triggered the Article 50 process for the UK to exit the EU – and Parliament supported it overwhelmingly.

Two years on, MPs have been unable to agree on a way to implement the UK’s withdrawal.

As a result, we will not now leave on time with a deal on 29 March.

This delay is a matter of great personal regret for me.

And of this I am absolutely sure: you the public have had enough.

You are tired of the infighting.

You are tired of the political games and arcane procedural rows.

Tired of MPs talking about nothing else but Brexit when you have real concerns about our children’s schools, our National Health Service, and knife crime.

You want this stage of the Brexit process to be over and done with.

I agree. I am on your side.

It is now time for MPs to decide.

So today I have written to Donald Tusk, the President of the European Council, to request a short extension of Article 50 up to 30 June to give MPs the time to make a final choice.

Do they want to leave the EU with a deal which delivers on the result of the referendum – that takes back control of our money, borders and laws while protecting jobs and our national security?

Do they want to leave without a deal?

Or do they not want to leave at all, causing potentially irreparable damage to public trust – not just in this generation of politicians, but to our entire democratic process?

It is high time we made a decision.

So far, Parliament has done everything possible to avoid making a choice.

Motion after motion and amendment after amendment has been tabled without Parliament ever deciding what it wants.

All MPs have been willing to say is what they do not want.

I passionately hope MPs will find a way to back the deal I have negotiated with the EU.

A deal that delivers on the result of the referendum and is the very best deal negotiable.

I will continue to work night and day to secure the support of my colleagues, the DUP and others for this deal.

But I am not prepared to delay Brexit any further than 30 June.

Some argue that I am making the wrong choice, and I should ask for a longer extension to the end of the year or beyond, to give more time for politicians to argue over the way forward.

That would mean asking you to vote in European elections, nearly three years after our country decided to leave.

What kind of message would that send?

And just how bitter and divisive would that election campaign be at a time when the country desperately needs bringing back together?

Some have suggested holding a second referendum.

I do not believe that is what you want – and it is not what I want.

We asked you the question already and you gave us your answer.

Now you want us to get on with it.

And that is what I am determined to do.
Gipsy Queen is offline  
Old 20th Mar 2019, 23:36
  #6518 (permalink)  
Está servira para distraerle.
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: In a perambulator.
Posts: 7,048
There really is no such thing as a hard Brexit. There is simply a resumption of the status quo ante, ante here being rather loosely defined but perhaps best described as being a time when a country could, should it so desire, declare war on another without grovelling to obtain the permission of twenty seven other countries, who wouldn't help anyway and wouldn't agree either.
As for planning, what should be necessary to plan for? Business and trade should and could continue as usual in a free market economy. It's only because the EU is anything but such an economy and is possessed of vast resources to obstruct any surge of independence that might be deemed to be remotely competitive to its continued polymorphous monstrousness that a smooth transition to independent trade is difficult.
But yes indeed, the British Parliament, which term includes all parties, has behaved with extraordinary ineptitude, arrogance and duplicity. It, more than any other element in the proceedings has been criminally negligent. The EU has behaved as what it is, an empire based structure that, hydra like, attempts to intrude into all nations with which it comes into contact, a truly evil creation worthy of a Sauron. The rest of the world of course has alternately despaired or jubilated, depending upon levels of previous colonialism. There are not winners in this sorry tale, well, except perhaps Donald Trump under whose comparatively sane and steady hand Britain would by now have achieved its Brexit and be trading around the world with a super fleet of jumbos on steroids.
cavortingcheetah is offline  
Old 21st Mar 2019, 05:52
  #6519 (permalink)  
Thought police antagonist
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Where I always have been...firmly in the real world
Posts: 911
" The Long March " Day 5. Intelligence reports suggest opposition expected in Doncaster . Divine Saviour issues morale boosting call and statement of intent to heroic phalanx of liberators ! " Glory, glory, Man Utd, as the Reds go marching on ! on ! on ! " ( no sporting allegiances or comparisons permitted ! Ed )


https://www.standard.co.uk/news/poli...-a4097091.html
Krystal n chips is offline  
Old 21st Mar 2019, 06:35
  #6520 (permalink)  
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Peripatetic
Posts: 9,775
Originally Posted by Parapunter
Clearly I don't mean that & moreover anyone who considers the current farce to be the end in sight has failed to understand anything about it.
On the contrary, the end is in sight. Parliament did have a chance to take control, but the EU has now taken that out of their hands.

The EU have now said that a short extension is only available if the WA is approved by the HoC. I do not expect that to happen, even if Bercow allowed to return for another vote.

The options under which they will allow a long extension are reported to be a definite plan involving either another referendum or a general election. The first was voted down by an overall majority of the HoC last week and, as with the WA, should not be allowed to return for a vote; and even if it did would also fail to reach a majority. The second would require, under the Fixed Term Parliament Act, a vote in favour by 66% of MPs, which is not feasible.

All the above, of course, is based on no veto by any other EU member, and the French foreign minister said yesterday* in their parliament that they would veto anything but the WA being accepted - and others are making similar noises.

It would seem that, barring some miraculous intervention, everything will be over by 11pm next Friday.

TM just got the opportunity to get the first call in the blame game.

*https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/b...nted-f86d37jb5

”Jean-Yves Le Drian, the French foreign minister, told his country’s MEPs yesterday that unless Britain could show how and when it would ratify the withdrawal agreement then France would back no-deal. “If she can’t bring sufficient guarantees, it would cause us to reject the request and prepare for a no-deal exit,” he said.“

Last edited by ORAC; 21st Mar 2019 at 07:19.
ORAC is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us Archive Advertising Cookie Policy Privacy Statement Terms of Service

Copyright © 2018 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.