Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > PPRuNe Social > Jet Blast
Reload this Page >

UK Politics Hamsterwheel MkII

Jet Blast Topics that don't fit the other forums. Rules of Engagement apply.

UK Politics Hamsterwheel MkII

Old 18th Mar 2019, 17:32
  #6381 (permalink)  
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Peripatetic
Posts: 9,731
I meant modified on the floor of the HoC to add the above amendments.

Parliament is no, effectively, stymied, unless or until TM comes back to them next week.

With no agreement on the deal, the EU will not offer a short extension.

They have reportedly said that a long extension is only available if a sound reason can be presented - i.e. to hold either another referendum or an election, neither of which have been voted for by the HoC or are likely to be offered by TM.

Polling of MPs also shows no majority support for a long extension, let alone the conditions which the EU are rumoured to be insisting upon.

If TM returns to the HoC next week, after the Council meeting, with no extension agreed, then parliament will be left to find a way to find a majority for whatever terms she brings back and then hope the EU is willing to get all 27 heads of state to agree to it; or find a majority for revocation (unlikely); and then find a means of changing the existing Withdrawal Act within 2-3 days.

The risks of a cliff-edge Brexit just multiplied considerably.

The Speaker is is practicing an incredibly dangerous piece of brinksmanship, and the risks of miscalculation are far higher than he probably thinks.
ORAC is offline  
Old 18th Mar 2019, 17:35
  #6382 (permalink)  
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Peripatetic
Posts: 9,731

ORAC is offline  
Old 18th Mar 2019, 17:37
  #6383 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Sunny Sussex
Posts: 778
Originally Posted by ORAC View Post
I meant modified on the floor of the HoC to add the above amendments.

Parliament is no, effectively, stymied, unless or until TM comes back to them next week.

With no agreement on the deal, the EU will not offer a short extension.

They have reportedly said that a long extension is only available if a sound reason can be presented - i.e. to hold either another referendum or an election, neither of which have been voted for by the HoC or are likely to be offered by TM.

Polling of MPs also shows no majority support for a long extension, let alone the conditions which the EU are rumoured to be insisting upon.

If TM returns to the HoC next week, after the Council meeting, with no extension agreed, then parliament will be left to find a way to find a majority for whatever terms she brings back and then hope the EU is willing to get all 27 heads of state to agree to it; or find a majority for revocation (unlikely); and then find a means of changing the existing Withdrawal Act within 2-3 days.

The risks of a cliff-edge Brexit just multiplied considerably.

The Speaker is is practicing an incredibly dangerous piece of brinksmanship, and the risks of miscalculation are far higher than he probably thinks.
I know what you meant & it doesn't work. You cannot make a unilateral alteration to a bilateral text, or rather you can but it's meaningless. The EU won't agree it, the speaker will see through it & you're right back where you started. You have in effect described the Malthouse amendment on a procedural level & that was yet another example of leave delusions I mentioned earlier.. On your second point, you don't know that and she will ask the council. We go from there.
Parapunter is offline  
Old 18th Mar 2019, 17:47
  #6384 (permalink)  
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Peripatetic
Posts: 9,731
No, you still misunderstand me.

The above amendments weren’t to the text of the deal, they were additional amendments to the vote in the HoC which would have added the requirements for a confirmatory referendum and to give parliament control of parliamentary business to enable it to initiate and push through a change to the existing Withdrawal Act. Both those amendments have now been lost irrevocably.
ORAC is offline  
Old 18th Mar 2019, 19:36
  #6385 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Longton, Lancs, UK
Age: 75
Posts: 1,462
In my local this evening, we were joined by a younger man who was a stranger to the pub - but welcomed. After the usual short spell on Brexit, he declared that 'you older guys didn't know what you were voting for in the referendum, and that's why we are in this mess'. Unfortunately that lead to the sort of hostile discussion we see on here, daily.
As ever, I kept my powder dry. After he departed, I said that he was quite entitled to his view. But that said, he was a tad arrogant in 'telling' us we were wrong, loudly.
I went on to say that I knew and know exactly why I voted to leave; and it had little to do with immigration or trading. Sovereignty, Presidency, Common Armed Forces, Law Making and the like were uppermost in my mind: and remain so. All those aspects were not on the table in 1975 when I voted to join the EC. They have evolved since. And even though I am oldish, I maintain my views out of personal wisdom. Which includes 17 years working harmoniously within Europe; many spent in Germany, Spain and France. Most of my European friends do actually share a similar view . And we are able to discuss the issues without rancor.
Whichever way things emerge I hope, and believe, that our relationship with our European allies will continue to be more friendly and tolerant than the pervasive atmosphere on this thread.
jindabyne is offline  
Old 18th Mar 2019, 19:43
  #6386 (permalink)  
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Peripatetic
Posts: 9,731
ORAC is offline  
Old 18th Mar 2019, 19:52
  #6387 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Brighton
Posts: 39
All three main parties need a new leader first, I personally will be hard pushed to vote for any of them at present.
Filler Dent is offline  
Old 18th Mar 2019, 20:05
  #6388 (permalink)  
Está servira para distraerle.
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: In a perambulator.
Posts: 7,046
The general election will be a little bit of a squashed lime because, even if not entirely internally but certainly psychologically so, Britain is about to be ruled completely by the Remainers and their evil empire masters across the newly named 'European Sea.'
cavortingcheetah is offline  
Old 18th Mar 2019, 20:41
  #6389 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Southwold
Age: 67
Posts: 58
Given the antics of our own government these past months I am not personally frightened of being ruled by anyone. They surely couldn't be worse. The problem with a GE is it may not give any kind of resolution, maybe even less of one.
Effluent Man is offline  
Old 18th Mar 2019, 21:00
  #6390 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Currently within the EU
Posts: 313
Originally Posted by Effluent Man View Post
Given the antics of our own government these past months I am not personally frightened of being ruled by anyone. They surely couldn't be worse. The problem with a GE is it may not give any kind of resolution, maybe even less of one.
That's right of course.
A GE may happen, but it will not solve anything
Sallyann1234 is offline  
Old 18th Mar 2019, 21:19
  #6391 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Looking for the signals square at LHR
Posts: 164
Originally Posted by Hussar 54 View Post
While everyone knows quite how I feel about the EU, as an outsider looking in to the absolute bolleaux that Brexit seems to have become I can't help thinking that 99% falls on PM May's shoulders and it is her own, personal incompetence and some of her fifth columnist colleagues which is the root of the problem.

I suppose that there is an element of ' well, she did her best and under the circumstances....' which might excuse her a tiny bit, but to me and millions like me who had such hopes that Brexit would kick some sense into the blockheads in Brussels, there is a growing feeling that by allowing them to walk all over her and her so-called Brexit advisors she's actually strengthened what was undoubtedly their very precarious positions and at the same time encouraged the UK's Remainers to spout off about what a stupid decision Brexit was because the UK can't do this, won't be able to that, etc, etc, when all it needed was a firm f*ck you, EU, from the very beginning and the past two years would have been a totally different course of events.
. . . it is her own, personal incompetence and some of her fifth columnist colleagues which is the root of the problem. Indeed. And it is for this reason that the reaction of ' well, she did her best and under the circumstances....' has to be rejected. The Maybot has been the author of her own misfortunes, right from the beginning. Sadly, as you rightly observe, she has been very ably assisted by her coterie of quisling, fifth-rate politicians et les conneries of the Remain camp which have led the country to this ludicrous position. The woman was a third rate Home Secretary which, no doubt, was why the establishment chose to replace the playboy Cameron with her as a wholly incompetent Prime Minister, safe in the expectation that she would cock-up the whole process to their advantage. Only the feeble-minded would feel any sympathy with Theresa May.

She and the cowardly Remain contingent have squandered a truly golden opportunity. It is a matter of profound and lasting regret that so few of them had the vision to see beyond their myopic concept of a failing European order. I have no liking for the odious dwarf running the Commons but have to commend his latest intervention. I think his ruling absolutely correct and applaud his action - which may well have been for the wrong reasons!

Last edited by Gipsy Queen; 18th Mar 2019 at 23:31.
Gipsy Queen is offline  
Old 18th Mar 2019, 21:42
  #6392 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: yes
Posts: 144
Originally Posted by jindabyne View Post
In my local this evening, we were joined by a younger man who was a stranger to the pub - but welcomed. After the usual short spell on Brexit, he declared that 'you older guys didn't know what you were voting for in the referendum, and that's why we are in this mess'. Unfortunately that lead to the sort of hostile discussion we see on here, daily.
As ever, I kept my powder dry. After he departed, I said that he was quite entitled to his view. But that said, he was a tad arrogant in 'telling' us we were wrong, loudly.
I went on to say that I knew and know exactly why I voted to leave; and it had little to do with immigration or trading. Sovereignty, Presidency, Common Armed Forces, Law Making and the like were uppermost in my mind: and remain so. All those aspects were not on the table in 1975 when I voted to join the EC. They have evolved since. And even though I am oldish, I maintain my views out of personal wisdom. Which includes 17 years working harmoniously within Europe; many spent in Germany, Spain and France. Most of my European friends do actually share a similar view . And we are able to discuss the issues without rancor.
Whichever way things emerge I hope, and believe, that our relationship with our European allies will continue to be more friendly and tolerant than the pervasive atmosphere on this thread.
Completely agree although I disagree with your reason for voting leave because in my my mind none of these are the issues you seem to believe. None of that was lost but what you are about to lose is the ability of Britain to influence matters on the Continent which whether anyone likes it or not was for the most part positive. Britain never lost sovereignty. It's a lie. But Britain is about to become irrelevant in Europe like Switzerland and Norway.
Is that what you voted for?
Steepclimb is offline  
Old 18th Mar 2019, 22:15
  #6393 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Sunny Sussex
Posts: 778
Originally Posted by ORAC View Post
No, you still misunderstand me.

The above amendments weren’t to the text of the deal, they were additional amendments to the vote in the HoC which would have added the requirements for a confirmatory referendum and to give parliament control of parliamentary business to enable it to initiate and push through a change to the existing Withdrawal Act. Both those amendments have now been lost irrevocably.
Forgive me, I did misundrestand you. Nonetheless I disagree with the conclusion. Leavers celebrating no deal back on the table and getting their villain of choice assuming the EU refuse an extension are overlooking the EU's calculations in this. It's the highest of high stakes, they must now decide whether to gamble on the UK crashing out or revoking and there are probably sufficient votes in the chamber to revoke & Bercow will facilitate it.
Parapunter is offline  
Old 18th Mar 2019, 22:15
  #6394 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 1999
Location: Hyeres, France
Posts: 1
Originally Posted by Steepclimb View Post
Completely agree although I disagree with your reason for voting leave because in my my mind none of these are the issues you seem to believe. None of that was lost but what you are about to lose is the ability of Britain to influence matters on the Continent which whether anyone likes it or not was for the most part positive. Britain never lost sovereignty. It's a lie. But Britain is about to become irrelevant in Europe like Switzerland and Norway.
Is that what you voted for?

You really, sincerely believe that the UK had any clout within the EU ??

The UK's position in the EU was firmly emphasised amd confirmed when Cameron was sent to the naughty step by the Commission for trying to get the changes he claimed he would be able to get to avoid having to offer a referendum when they knew full well that their refusal would virtually guarantee a referendum and a majority Leave vote.

The UK should have been an important part of the EU - unfortunately it was only the UK's contributions and, latterly, its ability to soak up millions of unemployed Poles, Portuguese, Italians, etc that were ever important to the EU.
Hussar 54 is offline  
Old 18th Mar 2019, 22:17
  #6395 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Currently within the EU
Posts: 313
Originally Posted by Steepclimb View Post
Completely agree although I disagree with your reason for voting leave because in my my mind none of these are the issues you seem to believe. None of that was lost but what you are about to lose is the ability of Britain to influence matters on the Continent which whether anyone likes it or not was for the most part positive. Britain never lost sovereignty. It's a lie. But Britain is about to become irrelevant in Europe like Switzerland and Norway.
Is that what you voted for?
They didn't care WHAT they voted for, as long as it was Brexit. And they got it.

Sallyann1234 is offline  
Old 18th Mar 2019, 22:21
  #6396 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Sunny Sussex
Posts: 778
Originally Posted by Hussar 54 View Post
You really, sincerely believe that the UK had any clout within the EU ??

The UK's position in the EU was firmly emphasised amd confirmed when Cameron was sent to the naughty step by the Commission for trying to get the changes he claimed he would be able to get to avoid having to offer a referendum when they knew full well that their refusal would virtually guarantee a referendum and a majority Leave vote.

The UK should have been an important part of the EU - unfortunately it was only the UK's contributions and, latterly, its ability to soak up millions of unemployed Poles, Portuguese, Italians, etc that were ever important to the EU.
This is garbage. Pure, unadulterated hooey. If you can't offer anything other than cant, then keep it to yourself.

https://fullfact.org/europe/eu-facts...-uk-influence/
Parapunter is offline  
Old 18th Mar 2019, 22:23
  #6397 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Longton, Lancs, UK
Age: 75
Posts: 1,462
Britain never lost sovereignty.
I didn't say we lost it. But we might well do with EU progression. As for losing our reputation on the continent of Europe, I think not; such a view demonstrates lack of National pride and confidence. Something that permeates our psyche in 2019. (Sport aside!)
jindabyne is offline  
Old 18th Mar 2019, 22:40
  #6398 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 1999
Location: Hyeres, France
Posts: 1
Originally Posted by Sallyann1234 View Post
​​May's red lines turned out to have been only yellow.

The EU's red lines are fixed in their constitution and were never available to be changed.

Cameron found that out before he called the referendum.

It seems that the angry white man from Sussex thinks your comment is garbage. Pure, unadulterated hooey. and asks if you can't offer anything other than cant, then keep it to yourself.
Hussar 54 is offline  
Old 18th Mar 2019, 22:43
  #6399 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: yes
Posts: 144
Originally Posted by Hussar 54 View Post
You really, sincerely believe that the UK had any clout within the EU ??

The UK's position in the EU was firmly emphasised amd confirmed when Cameron was sent to the naughty step by the Commission for trying to get the changes he claimed he would be able to get to avoid having to offer a referendum when they knew full well that their refusal would virtually guarantee a referendum and a majority Leave vote.

The UK should have been an important part of the EU - unfortunately it was only the UK's contributions and, latterly, its ability to soak up millions of unemployed Poles, Portuguese, Italians, etc that were ever important to the EU.
Nonsense the UK was part of the big three in the EU and often the brake of some of the nuttier notions of the EU.

Why on Earth do you think the Poles and the rest of the people you mention were drawn to the UK? Jobs, opportunity, English speaking. A land of opportunity. A tolerant society where people who are prepared to work hard can succeed. Do you honestly believe all those immigrants are living on the dole?

It seems you think that being perceived as a country where hard work is rewarded is a bad thing.

You are a victim of the Euroskeptic false news perpetrated by the likes of of Johnson and Farage.

You are also a victim of thinking that that the EU is some form of massive plot or conspiracy to somehow get at the British. Really? You seem intelligent so does that even make sense? The evil EU out to get the British.

Get real please.

Steepclimb is offline  
Old 18th Mar 2019, 22:50
  #6400 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: yes
Posts: 144
Originally Posted by jindabyne View Post
I didn't say we lost it. But we might well do with EU progression. As for losing our reputation on the continent of Europe, I think not; such a view demonstrates lack of National pride and confidence. Something that permeates our psyche in 2019. (Sport aside!)
You may not have said it but others do. Do you think France has lost it's sovereignty, Germany? Do you think either of those proud and powerful nations demonstrate lack of pride?

Britain hasn't lost it's pride but it's a negative pride. Britain looks weak now in Europe and perhaps beyond. Venezuela lite maybe?
​​​​​
Steepclimb is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us Archive Advertising Cookie Policy Privacy Statement Terms of Service

Copyright © 2018 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.