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UK Politics Hamsterwheel MkII

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UK Politics Hamsterwheel MkII

Old 18th Mar 2019, 16:14
  #6361 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Sallyann1234 View Post
Very true.
The CS would have handled it very differently if left to run the negotiations. The exit would have been resolved much sooner and cleaner and with less ill will.

BUT the result would have been just the same, because the EU were neither willing nor able to offer more than they have.
The result may well have been different if the red lines had been different.
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Old 18th Mar 2019, 16:16
  #6362 (permalink)  
 
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Quite. This mess is a direct result of choices made by May. People forget this.
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Old 18th Mar 2019, 16:20
  #6363 (permalink)  
 
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https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-47614074

Well that's sorted then, wonder what the next card to be played is.
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Old 18th Mar 2019, 16:31
  #6364 (permalink)  
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Re John Bercow:
Votes on the "same or substantially the same motion" would not be allowed, he said.

Isn't that a little strange when so many of the votes that have happened in parliament over the last two years have all been about throwing out the result of a referendum that the parliamentarians themselves, including the speaker, never thought would be won by a dimwitted, badly organised, uneducated, poverty sicken, bovine majority of the people that didn't live outside London, didn't have houses in France, didn't employ au pairs, didn't drive Range Rovers or have picnic baskets and weren't therefore inclined to be of low moral compass?
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Old 18th Mar 2019, 16:53
  #6365 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by zoigberg View Post


The result may well have been different if the red lines had been different.
​​May's red lines turned out to have been only yellow.

The EU's red lines are fixed in their constitution and were never available to be changed.

Cameron found that out before he called the referendum.
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Old 18th Mar 2019, 17:02
  #6366 (permalink)  
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If MV3 can’t be presented again, it can’t be modified, which precludes the amendment requiring a confirmatory referendum and the amendment allowing parliament to take control of parliamentary business.
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Old 18th Mar 2019, 17:07
  #6367 (permalink)  
 
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This is the inevitable culmination of the lies & dishonesty leave campaigners have pushed for three years.In the final analysis, it had to come home to roost. The PM promised to end freedom of movement but retain trade advantages. This was never in prospect, The body has rotted from the head down. Not one Brexit supporting member of the Government has ever stood up & contradicted this. Instead they perpetuated the lie & piled more on top.

if we go without a deal, then so be it. It will be the leave lies & only the leave lies that propel us to that point. It will never be forgotten. The natural party of government, the friend of business shafting the nation. And the useful idiots will cheer it on.
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Old 18th Mar 2019, 17:08
  #6368 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by ORAC View Post
If MV3 canít be presented again, it canít be modified, which precludes the amendment requiring a confirmatory referendum and the referendum allowing parliament to take control of parliamentary business.
It can't be modified anyway. That requires the EU to reopen negotiations. that is not happening. It's dead.
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Old 18th Mar 2019, 17:19
  #6369 (permalink)  
 
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Can't for the life of me understand the manipulation and fooling around that has gone on so far but surely, if the government and May don't come up with something in the next few days does the UK not automatically leave the EU with no deal on March the 29th by virtue of Article 50?
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Old 18th Mar 2019, 17:32
  #6370 (permalink)  
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I meant modified on the floor of the HoC to add the above amendments.

Parliament is no, effectively, stymied, unless or until TM comes back to them next week.

With no agreement on the deal, the EU will not offer a short extension.

They have reportedly said that a long extension is only available if a sound reason can be presented - i.e. to hold either another referendum or an election, neither of which have been voted for by the HoC or are likely to be offered by TM.

Polling of MPs also shows no majority support for a long extension, let alone the conditions which the EU are rumoured to be insisting upon.

If TM returns to the HoC next week, after the Council meeting, with no extension agreed, then parliament will be left to find a way to find a majority for whatever terms she brings back and then hope the EU is willing to get all 27 heads of state to agree to it; or find a majority for revocation (unlikely); and then find a means of changing the existing Withdrawal Act within 2-3 days.

The risks of a cliff-edge Brexit just multiplied considerably.

The Speaker is is practicing an incredibly dangerous piece of brinksmanship, and the risks of miscalculation are far higher than he probably thinks.
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Old 18th Mar 2019, 17:35
  #6371 (permalink)  
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Old 18th Mar 2019, 17:37
  #6372 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by ORAC View Post
I meant modified on the floor of the HoC to add the above amendments.

Parliament is no, effectively, stymied, unless or until TM comes back to them next week.

With no agreement on the deal, the EU will not offer a short extension.

They have reportedly said that a long extension is only available if a sound reason can be presented - i.e. to hold either another referendum or an election, neither of which have been voted for by the HoC or are likely to be offered by TM.

Polling of MPs also shows no majority support for a long extension, let alone the conditions which the EU are rumoured to be insisting upon.

If TM returns to the HoC next week, after the Council meeting, with no extension agreed, then parliament will be left to find a way to find a majority for whatever terms she brings back and then hope the EU is willing to get all 27 heads of state to agree to it; or find a majority for revocation (unlikely); and then find a means of changing the existing Withdrawal Act within 2-3 days.

The risks of a cliff-edge Brexit just multiplied considerably.

The Speaker is is practicing an incredibly dangerous piece of brinksmanship, and the risks of miscalculation are far higher than he probably thinks.
I know what you meant & it doesn't work. You cannot make a unilateral alteration to a bilateral text, or rather you can but it's meaningless. The EU won't agree it, the speaker will see through it & you're right back where you started. You have in effect described the Malthouse amendment on a procedural level & that was yet another example of leave delusions I mentioned earlier.. On your second point, you don't know that and she will ask the council. We go from there.
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Old 18th Mar 2019, 17:47
  #6373 (permalink)  
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No, you still misunderstand me.

The above amendments weren’t to the text of the deal, they were additional amendments to the vote in the HoC which would have added the requirements for a confirmatory referendum and to give parliament control of parliamentary business to enable it to initiate and push through a change to the existing Withdrawal Act. Both those amendments have now been lost irrevocably.
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Old 18th Mar 2019, 19:36
  #6374 (permalink)  
 
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In my local this evening, we were joined by a younger man who was a stranger to the pub - but welcomed. After the usual short spell on Brexit, he declared that 'you older guys didn't know what you were voting for in the referendum, and that's why we are in this mess'. Unfortunately that lead to the sort of hostile discussion we see on here, daily.
As ever, I kept my powder dry. After he departed, I said that he was quite entitled to his view. But that said, he was a tad arrogant in 'telling' us we were wrong, loudly.
I went on to say that I knew and know exactly why I voted to leave; and it had little to do with immigration or trading. Sovereignty, Presidency, Common Armed Forces, Law Making and the like were uppermost in my mind: and remain so. All those aspects were not on the table in 1975 when I voted to join the EC. They have evolved since. And even though I am oldish, I maintain my views out of personal wisdom. Which includes 17 years working harmoniously within Europe; many spent in Germany, Spain and France. Most of my European friends do actually share a similar view . And we are able to discuss the issues without rancor.
Whichever way things emerge I hope, and believe, that our relationship with our European allies will continue to be more friendly and tolerant than the pervasive atmosphere on this thread.
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Old 18th Mar 2019, 19:43
  #6375 (permalink)  
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Old 18th Mar 2019, 19:52
  #6376 (permalink)  
 
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All three main parties need a new leader first, I personally will be hard pushed to vote for any of them at present.
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Old 18th Mar 2019, 20:05
  #6377 (permalink)  
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The general election will be a little bit of a squashed lime because, even if not entirely internally but certainly psychologically so, Britain is about to be ruled completely by the Remainers and their evil empire masters across the newly named 'European Sea.'
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Old 18th Mar 2019, 20:41
  #6378 (permalink)  
 
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Given the antics of our own government these past months I am not personally frightened of being ruled by anyone. They surely couldn't be worse. The problem with a GE is it may not give any kind of resolution, maybe even less of one.
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Old 18th Mar 2019, 21:00
  #6379 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Effluent Man View Post
Given the antics of our own government these past months I am not personally frightened of being ruled by anyone. They surely couldn't be worse. The problem with a GE is it may not give any kind of resolution, maybe even less of one.
That's right of course.
A GE may happen, but it will not solve anything
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Old 18th Mar 2019, 21:19
  #6380 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Hussar 54 View Post
While everyone knows quite how I feel about the EU, as an outsider looking in to the absolute bolleaux that Brexit seems to have become I can't help thinking that 99% falls on PM May's shoulders and it is her own, personal incompetence and some of her fifth columnist colleagues which is the root of the problem.

I suppose that there is an element of ' well, she did her best and under the circumstances....' which might excuse her a tiny bit, but to me and millions like me who had such hopes that Brexit would kick some sense into the blockheads in Brussels, there is a growing feeling that by allowing them to walk all over her and her so-called Brexit advisors she's actually strengthened what was undoubtedly their very precarious positions and at the same time encouraged the UK's Remainers to spout off about what a stupid decision Brexit was because the UK can't do this, won't be able to that, etc, etc, when all it needed was a firm f*ck you, EU, from the very beginning and the past two years would have been a totally different course of events.
. . . it is her own, personal incompetence and some of her fifth columnist colleagues which is the root of the problem. Indeed. And it is for this reason that the reaction of ' well, she did her best and under the circumstances....' has to be rejected. The Maybot has been the author of her own misfortunes, right from the beginning. Sadly, as you rightly observe, she has been very ably assisted by her coterie of quisling, fifth-rate politicians et les conneries of the Remain camp which have led the country to this ludicrous position. The woman was a third rate Home Secretary which, no doubt, was why the establishment chose to replace the playboy Cameron with her as a wholly incompetent Prime Minister, safe in the expectation that she would cock-up the whole process to their advantage. Only the feeble-minded would feel any sympathy with Theresa May.

She and the cowardly Remain contingent have squandered a truly golden opportunity. It is a matter of profound and lasting regret that so few of them had the vision to see beyond their myopic concept of a failing European order. I have no liking for the odious dwarf running the Commons but have to commend his latest intervention. I think his ruling absolutely correct and applaud his action - which may well have been for the wrong reasons!

Last edited by Gipsy Queen; 18th Mar 2019 at 23:31.
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